Settling in with Hotchkis...

[myk]

Just like that?  I want to see the results on a printout, from an alignment rack.  I do not have the qualifications or the confidence to just "eyeball" this thing..

I'm not trying to be a smart ass.  If you mark where you are now on the tie rods and the lengthen them 1/4-1/2 each  ,increasing toe in, and then test drive to see if it helps with the twitchy feel. Easy to return to where it was if it does not help. This is assuming the steering is still behind the front axle like stock?

I have set a rough toe in  with over hauled front ends with tape on the tires ,rolling the car back and forth to get it in the ball park to drive to the alignment shop. You can get pretty close.  Still would have it aligned.


[/quote]

I didn't think you were trying to be a smart ass, I really was just asking if that was all there is to it.  I have a habit of screwing up the most simple things so I just wanted to be sure.  I will definitely try what you suggested and I thank you for your input.  

Meanwhile, I finally got a chance to snap some shots of the new rear end height with the Hotchkis leafs:







Yeah yeah I know-but the fender covers were two for $5 at Napa so I said what the hell...

Question: how do I determine where the strut rods should be set at?

[garner7555]

I would leave the strut rods alone and only adjust the toe.      If you start moving other stuff you might end up back at the alignment shop.   Not that I doubt your ability, I just don't think there is any need to move it.   

[myk]

I'm not planning on moving anything else myself, however if I adjust the toe to see if I "like it" I will most likely take the car back to the alignment rack.  If I end up there anyway, I wanted to know about adjusting the strut rods...

[fy469rtse]

myk looks good , Cheers and thanks for posting photo"s
now more when it s on the rack or hoist

[1974dodgecharger]

That looks badass man...that stance makes your time size choice perfect.

[myk]

Here are a few more shots without so much clutter in the view...







Not sure if I like the raked look or not.  Clayton says the rear will drop down a bit but then again I'm not sure if I like the idea of that either.  In another life I must've been a chick trying to pick out a pair of shoes.  Notice how my front wheel looks turned in?  That's the negative -1 camber for you.  Most important thing is that the car is extremely balanced and sure-footed, minus my "toe-in" concerns, of course.  I'm adjusting the rods tomorrow, and then I'll test drive to see what's up...

[HPP]

Question: how do I determine where the strut rods should be set at?

Probably should have set this up when the suspension was all apart for rebuild as its easier to set this when the t-bar is out. Basically you want to have the lower control arm at its most neutral point so its arc swings freely up and down without binding. Install the strut at a length to allow this motion to continue. You can then start shortening the strut rod some to gain caster, but you want to be able to check the arc of the lower arm to make sure you don't induce any binding within a +/- 3 inches of travel.

Since you have it all together you probably don't want to mess with it. If you are going to take it in for another alignment, you could try shortening the strut to gain more caster, but at 6*, you are already in pretty good shape. If you were really pushing the driving envelop or racing, then I'd suggest adding 2-3* more caster, but where you are at now is a big step up over stock.

Don't forget that the struts primary function is to stabilize the lower control arm. The adjustability allows some fine tuning of geometry, but the strut is more important during braking than for its contribution to geometry.

[myk]

Question: how do I determine where the strut rods should be set at?

Probably should have set this up when the suspension was all apart for rebuild as its easier to set this when the t-bar is out. Basically you want to have the lower control arm at its most neutral point so its arc swings freely up and down without binding. Install the strut at a length to allow this motion to continue. You can then start shortening the strut rod some to gain caster, but you want to be able to check the arc of the lower arm to make sure you don't induce any binding within a +/- 3 inches of travel.

Since you have it all together you probably don't want to mess with it. If you are going to take it in for another alignment, you could try shortening the strut to gain more caster, but at 6*, you are already in pretty good shape. If you were really pushing the driving envelop or racing, then I'd suggest adding 2-3* more caster, but where you are at now is a big step up over stock.

Don't forget that the struts primary function is to stabilize the lower control arm. The adjustability allows some fine tuning of geometry, but the strut is more important during braking than for its contribution to geometry.

I see.  Thanks for making that clear.  

Well I adjusted the steering rods out a bit and I "think" I liked what I felt so I took it in for an official alignment.  This time I went to a local place that supposedly specializes in aftermarket suspensions; this shop was pointed out to me by some of the local Mustang guys, so I figured it was worth a shot.  

I had the shop verify the alignment settings, which is where they told me I didn't have nearly enough toe-in, and that I was toe'ing out during suspension travel.  I told them that during hard braking and/or taking a curve at high speed the front tires would screech/squeal.  They didn't seem surprised by that observation and said it was a toe issue.  They saw that my driveway adjustment was in the right direction, and they recommended a 1/8" total toe-in.  I agreed and now with the car back on the road I have to say that I'm very, VERY happy with the stability of the car.  Of course, I finally get a day off and a chance to finally see if this car is dialed in properly and IT'S RAINING.

Another question:  the shop is recommending the replacement of the pitman arm.  Would this be a good time to try out Hotchkis' quick ratio setup?  I am planning on TTi headers but those aren't scheduled to go in until the end of the year at the earliest.  Opinions?  Again, thank you all so much for guiding me along with all of this...

[fy469rtse]

Myk , firmfeel or pro forged do the quick ratio idler and pitman arms,
Much better price ?  some of them are on summits site
I've just finished fitting the firmfeel adjustable strut rods , and with stock arms was to get a little more castor in
I think you have enough,
Leave the rake look  good to have a nose down attitude, at high speed wind gets under the nose and picks it up higher, nose down ,
All your car is missing is a little jewellery , wheel arch moulds ?
Car great pal, 
I'll trade you , I will take some under shots of mine if you do lol

[myk]

Myk , firmfeel or pro forged do the quick ratio idler and pitman arms,
Much better price ?   some of them are on summits site
I've just finished fitting the firmfeel adjustable strut rods , and with stock arms was to get a little more castor in
I think you have enough,
Leave the rake look   good to have a nose down attitude, at high speed wind gets under the nose and picks it up higher, nose down ,
All your car is missing is a little jewellery , wheel arch moulds ?
Car great pal,  
I'll trade you , I will take some under shots of mine if you do lol

Thanks for the compliment.  I actually took my wheel well trim off, because I figured with the chrome circle on the wheels it was just too much chrome.  I actually wish my wheels were all one color. 

Aw hell I forgot, as I was pretty caught up in the idea of finally getting the suspensin worked out.  Then again, the shop offered to install any pitman arm I bring in and re-set the toe for just $75, so I'll get a chance to take some pictures.  Do I have to replace the idler arm as well, and is it that much more labor intensive to get done as well?

Oh wait, here's the rear after the leaf-install:

[1974dodgecharger]

They say the pitman arm shouldn't wear?  I replaced my idler arm had a tad of slop in it...Pitman hard to say.....

[fy469rtse]

Change both if your going to the longer quick ratio ones ,
Keeps steering ratio the same to both sides,
No not a hard job to do , but will affect toe in , so get them to check that at the same time

[HPP]

Pitman arms, and idlers too, don't wear rapidly, but with a ball socket, they can wear.

I'd agree with replacing both at the same time if you are going fast ratio. If staying with standard ration, then only replace the  bad arm. However,  I'd also verify your future choice of headers before deciding on the fast ratio approach.

[myk]

Pitman arms, and idlers too, don't wear rapidly, but with a ball socket, they can wear.

I'd agree with replacing both at the same time if you are going fast ratio. If staying with standard ration, then only replace the  bad arm. However,  I'd also verify your future choice of headers before deciding on the fast ratio approach.

That's the problem, though.  I've always wanted TTi headers and they're not supposed to be compatible with the fast ratio stuff.  Maybe I'll run with HP manifolds, but I think board member Kern Dog uses the big block, fast ratio and TTi combination?  I dunno...

[HPP]

Yea, might have to talk to a  few people who actually have the same combo to verify fit. Its not uncommon for a manufacturer to say things don't fit because they had 2 cars out of a 100 that didn't work. Obsolves them of the liability in case you have a car that's dimensions are a bit wonky.

[twenty mike mike]

Pitman arms, and idlers too, don't wear rapidly, but with a ball socket, they can wear.

I'd agree with replacing both at the same time if you are going fast ratio. If staying with standard ration, then only replace the  bad arm. However,  I'd also verify your future choice of headers before deciding on the fast ratio approach.

That's the problem, though.  I've always wanted TTi headers and they're not supposed to be compatible with the fast ratio stuff.  Maybe I'll run with HP manifolds, but I think board member Kern Dog uses the big block, fast ratio and TTi combination?  I dunno...

Thanks for posting the pics. The rake looks good, and if the springs settle an inch, that'll look good, too. You sold me...I just ordered a set from Summit and they matched the current Hotchkis sale price.

You sure I can't set you up with a couple of Hookers? Used, but most of them are.  I removed them to go with a more stock look under the hood.

[WHITE AND RED 69]

The stance looks good Myk     Was the shop able to get the front lowered to where you wanted it at?

That's the problem, though.  I've always wanted TTi headers and they're not supposed to be compatible with the fast ratio stuff.  Maybe I'll run with HP manifolds, but I think board member Kern Dog uses the big block, fast ratio and TTi combination?  I dunno...

I tried to add the fast ratio arms with my 1 7/8" TTI's and there was no way it would fit. Pitman arm fit but the idler arm smacked right into the tube. I even had to ding the tube to get the stock idler arm to fit.   

I've been told that certain Hedman Headers will work with the fast ratio parts. They are also half the price of the TTI's. 

[myk]

Pitman arms, and idlers too, don't wear rapidly, but with a ball socket, they can wear.

I'd agree with replacing both at the same time if you are going fast ratio. If staying with standard ration, then only replace the  bad arm. However,  I'd also verify your future choice of headers before deciding on the fast ratio approach.

That's the problem, though.  I've always wanted TTi headers and they're not supposed to be compatible with the fast ratio stuff.  Maybe I'll run with HP manifolds, but I think board member Kern Dog uses the big block, fast ratio and TTi combination?  I dunno...

Thanks for posting the pics. The rake looks good, and if the springs settle an inch, that'll look good, too. You sold me...I just ordered a set from Summit and they matched the current Hotchkis sale price.

You sure I can't set you up with a couple of Hookers? Used, but most of them are.   I removed them to go with a more stock look under the hood.

Wow you got a better price on the springs than I did.  Also I'm OK with the rake as long as it optimizes the ride and handling.  How was the fitment of the headers on your car?  What's their finish?  Any issues?

The stance looks good Myk     Was the shop able to get the front lowered to where you wanted it at?

That's the problem, though.  I've always wanted TTi headers and they're not supposed to be compatible with the fast ratio stuff.  Maybe I'll run with HP manifolds, but I think board member Kern Dog uses the big block, fast ratio and TTi combination?  I dunno...

I tried to add the fast ratio arms with my 1 7/8" TTI's and there was no way it would fit. Pitman arm fit but the idler arm smacked right into the tube. I even had to ding the tube to get the stock idler arm to fit.   

I've been told that certain Hedman Headers will work with the fast ratio parts. They are also half the price of the TTI's. 

The ride height was brought to where I wanted it.  That was one easy part of the process.  As for the headers, if the TTi's don't fit on your car with the fast ratio stuff, then they probably won't fit on mine.  I'll either have to look into the Hedmans or into the Borgeson box.   However, I may just run with the fast ratio stuff until it's time for the headers.  Or maybe I won't lol...

[twenty mike mike]

 How was the fitment of the headers on your car?  What's their finish?  Any issues?

I tried to send you a PM, but your mailbox is full.

[Kern Dog]

 I've always wanted TTi headers and they're not supposed to be compatible with the fast ratio stuff.  Maybe I'll run with HP manifolds, but I think board member Kern Dog uses the big block, fast ratio and TTi combination?  I dunno...

Hey there,
The TTI instructions do clearly state that their  383-440 2" headers do NOT clear the FR arms, but mine do by at least 1/4 to 3/8".

[Kern Dog]

Another shot.

[myk]

Whoa I didn't see your response till now. 

Well that's strange; Clayton's '69 can't clear with the TTi's but yours does.  I guess there really can be vast differences amongst our cars.  I will try and see, which brings me to my next question:

My car is going in for the fast ratio idler and pitman arms in a few days.  Will the car have to be realigned because of the procedure?   If so, is it the toe, caster and all that stuff, or is it just the toe? 

[Jaysick]

Another thing I noticed: the Hotchkis "lowering" springs actually sit a bit higher than my old stock springs.  Will this settle down after some miles? 

I just finished putting these springs on my 70.  I have 255/50/17 on the back and the tire sits inside the wheel well past the treads (total of about 2inches hidden under the well)   My old springs were so beat that by the time I put in the Hotchkis, it was sitting pretty much right where it is now after I put the new springs in.  It wasnt always like this and when the springs I replaced were a bit more fresh, there was a good two fingers of space between the wheel well and the top if the tire.  Maybe your springs were beat and sagging?

Ive also been noticing some weird squeeking when braking.   I found that I didnt tighten one side of one of the u-bolts (actually quite a few were uneven ) and once I did that it went away...  Alignment is s@#ty but not undrivable and it brakes good. Planning on getting new magforce upper control arms and when i replace those, ill put in my new steering box and 11/16 tie rods and then get started on this alignment nightmare you speak of..

[Jaysick]

After looking at your pictures a bit, I think your leaf spring forward mounts might be upside down.  It looks like ur car is sitting higher than it should.  The mount can be installed upside down and will position the spring mount point lower, makin ur ride higher.

Now if you look at this pic with stock location, the spring is hooked up to the mount towards the bottom
http://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/upload2/6661315-Hotchkis7_27_10TVSbuildSm37.JPG

Look at the instructions for the hotchkis, the spring is hooked up to the mount towards the top.  If you use the old mounts (if u can) or you put the hotchkis mounts on in the way that looks like the original springs then your car will sit higher.
http://www.hotchkis.net/dbms/instructions/24366.pdf

I cant see for sure in your pix but id definitely check it out and make certain.

[myk]

It was my understanding that the front mounts for the springs can only go in one way?  I will check it out...