Seat belt harness bar...

[1974dodgecharger]

Was told its unsafe unless you have a full roll cage?  Then I tell people I have lap belts now and told me that's super unsafe 

Anyways im switching to racing seats and now want a 4 point belt setup whats your opinion on this? 

[Mike DC]

Not bad, but it looks like it probably causes most of the drawbacks of a real 4pt rollbar without offering any of the vehicle structure gains.  It could use something diagonal. 

[JR]

Generally, they are unsafe in a street car without a cage.

As for why, imagine you end up flipping the car and the roof pancakes flat. In with a factory lap belt or 3 point belt your upper body can slide over the console and not be crushed.

If you're locked in bolt upright and the roof collapses on your head, you now have a broken neck/spine at the very minimum. Like this for example. Imagine the roof collapsing while you're stuck locked upright in your seat.


I do open track days and autoX fairly often, and even there I never see those harnesses without a 4 point roll bar minimum. Factory seat belts are used in most cases in standard street cars.

I'd reccomend getting the aftermarket, bolt in 3 point retractable seatbelt if they make one for a third gen.

[kanadanmajava]

If I remember correctly that Mustang had a cage but the mounting foots were badly attached and the cage was pushed through the floor. One of the mounting foots can be seen in the picture just in front of the right rear tire. I think that the driver surprisingly survived even though it looked unlikely from the crash footage.

If you don't want to install a cage you could just mount the harness' to the rear seat belt mounting holes or add some mounting point to the speaker shelf. One of those options could give the harness' suitable angle but would leave the interior pretty intact.

I'm planning to have a proper 6 point cage in my Charger (which I have now bought but its still waiting for shipping). I'm going to follow FIA rule book so it will be also race legal here in Finland. Our vehicle modification laws do in fact require that the cage has to be built according to some sanctioned race series regulations. Usually the cages are built according to FIA rules as all local series' require so (except the drag racing) but sometimes a bit cheaper tubing is used instead. The FIA rule book requires that the tubing has to be made of seamless cold drawn pipe (minimum tensile strength of 350 N/mm2) which is common hydraulic pipe but cannot be found from basic hardware store.

Here's a link to the regulation that also describes the cage construction. The rules are a bit hard to read so read only if you have plenty of time to study them.

Using a caged car on street is safe but that only applies if the passengers cannot reach any parts of the cage with their heads when they are seated. And some distance have to be left as our bodies do extend and seats bend with high accelerations. Some of this can be solved by using cage padding and only wearing at least 4 point harness. Seats have to be suitable for the harness' but proper racing seats with pass through holes for the harness' would be the best choice.

I'm rather tall so I will have to mount the seat very low to make my head stay away from the upper parts of the cage.

A friend of my friend was killed in an accident when he hit his head against the cage. I don't know much details but I think that the car was a Subaru from 00's. Here the newer cars are a bit problematic with the cages as you cannot easily get proper harness that would be street legal. Only one manufacturer (Schroth) offers a 4 point harness that would be street legal in a car newer than 1981 and mounting them is going to troublesome in many cases as mounting points themselves have some additional requirements.

[JR]

I don't believe OP is installing a cage.

Yes, the Mustang suffered roll cage failure, but that is irrelevant to the discussion here. The roof would have collapsed the same if it had never been installed (just like the car were discussing). It was sheer luck those two made it out of that OK, but it doesn't change how unsafe harness bars are in uncaged street vehicles.

The odds of ever flipping a street driven charger are pretty low, BUT if it happens, you shouldn't be locked into sitting upright when the roof crushes onto your head.

[kanadanmajava]

Yeah, I went a bit off topic there. But having a racing seat with a 4 point harness is still quite safe if the racing seat extends above your head. Then the seat will give you some support if the roof starts coming down. With any movable headrest a 4 point harness shouldn't be a good idea. For me most racing seats are too low to offer any protection from above. Shorter drivers have advantage in this safety issue.

I did roll my daily driver in August (with no additional safety equipment) and survived only with a stiff neck. But I was really lucky. It was totally unexpected but wouldn't like to try it again.

[JR]

Even a one piece race seat will collapse under the weight of the 4000lb car. Along with the driver's spine/skull. The seat itself is not rollover protection.

[myk]

The 'op has a 2nd gen. 

Anyway I'm in the same boat as he is. I would like a restraint system that actually restrains you during spirited driving, but even the factory 3 point systems in my late model cars is lacking.  I'm definitely not installing full cages in my cars either...

[kanadanmajava]

How about 4 point cage then? It shouldn't mess up the interior much more than the harness bar?

The racing seats aren't a roll over protection devices but every solid thing above your head will help. And they will give up with enough force but having your head hit the collapsing roof first is still the worst case. The roof itself is quite soft but the thing that is pushing the roof down usually isn't. Normal safety belts do leave so much slack that contact with the roof or other things is likely when you end up upside down. Newer cars of course have tightening device but I guess we aren't talking about those. All depends on the accident as even the best safety system isn't enough in every accident.

My former co-worker and brother of another co-worker both had rally accidents when their roll cage collapsed when they crashed against hard object (telephone pole and tree) sideways and windshield first. In both cases they had spinal injuries even though they had the best safety equipment available. Both still walk but one of them doesn't do it perfectly anymore.

Here are two examples of different opinions relating harness choices:

Safety aspects of racing seats and racing harnesses in street cars

Five-Point Belts Will Paralyze You and Other Fun Safety Facts

[JR]

I would suggest a 3 point retractable seatbelt conversion like this

http://www.profitautointeriors.com/products/Dodge/1969/Charger/Seat-Belts--Pair--Bucket-Seats--Retractable-Belts--1968-70-Mopar-A--B-Body-3-Point-Conversion/9975212/36870A25002BU.html


Along with a CG-Lock added in for the spirited driving.


We use them at track days in modern vehicles to lock the lower lap belt in place from retracting. It holds you in but still allows you to bend over the console in a worst case rollover scenario. It gives you most of the solid, locked in feeling that a harness gives you, but without the risk of being crushed in a roll.


Im all for the 4 points when a proper roll bar/cage is installed. But then we address the issue of hitting your (unhelmeted) head on it in a random crash on the street.... It's a whole topic unto itself.

OP, i should have asked earlier, are you planning on a rollbar?

[1974dodgecharger]

Ok here is the deal and current situation.  
-own a 68 charger early build
-no shoulder belt and no provision of a bolt hole for shoulder its blank there its a Dec. 11 of 67 build date they didn't add in the bolt threads till after 1-1-68, rumor only.
-I have generic lap belts right now where you click it and pull on it to tighten down, aftermarket.
-stock seating and bad foam cushion and bad springs so YES the longer I sit in my car I shrink in fact once I get in im 2inchs from hitting the carpet from center of my ass.  
-no I do not plan to do a roll cage this car is a daily driver status car


I have ordered two racing seats after sitting in a friends of mine and felt so comfortable vs stock seating and it has the holes in the shoulder are of the seat where a seat belt can go.  Im trying to figure out whats a SAFER WAY!!  mind you SAFER as in better than what I have not good as modern cars, but BETTER since I know our cars will never be as safe as a modern car unless someone has retrofitted their car with air bags, tested the new crash system etc....

I discussed this at other forums and the CLOWNS told me I need to THROW AWAY MY CAR!!!  BECAUSE ITS UNSAFE!!!  I did not tell them what kind of car I drive but I tell them its a 68 and it originally came with lap belts.

Things I have seen on other cars such as this car, but I believe this car is a track car only and is a member here...did not want to reveal his name since he is a popular guy among us 2nd gen charger folks that I posted pics of.

One thing I have seen and Mike Musto does this on his 68 is that his shoulder belt attaches to the anchor points in the rear seat, but from what I read that is also UNSAFE.  

JR, I like that idea of those seat belts im gonna look into those......

Thanks for everyone's responses im just gathering OPTIONS right now how to set this up and like em all.  Of course it will come down to my decisiosn to pick one, but like I said though either lap belts or SOMETHIGN ELES and based on info I have given it to people after I tell em I have lap belts they tell me to THRASH THIS CAR and get something safer.

[1974dodgecharger]

I read some of the links and man it seems like they are saying racing seats are just plain bad for a street car, but I wonder what their opinions are if I was to tell them I have lap belts ONLY right now whats safer than that?

How about 4 point cage then? It shouldn't mess up the interior much more than the harness bar?

The racing seats aren't a roll over protection devices but every solid thing above your head will help. And they will give up with enough force but having your head hit the collapsing roof first is still the worst case. The roof itself is quite soft but the thing that is pushing the roof down usually isn't. Normal safety belts do leave so much slack that contact with the roof or other things is likely when you end up upside down. Newer cars of course have tightening device but I guess we aren't talking about those. All depends on the accident as even the best safety system isn't enough in every accident.

My former co-worker and brother of another co-worker both had rally accidents when their roll cage collapsed when they crashed against hard object (telephone pole and tree) sideways and windshield first. In both cases they had spinal injuries even though they had the best safety equipment available. Both still walk but one of them doesn't do it perfectly anymore.

Here are two examples of different opinions relating harness choices:

Safety aspects of racing seats and racing harnesses in street cars

Five-Point Belts Will Paralyze You and Other Fun Safety Facts

[kanadanmajava]

Looks nice!

Early racer were even suspicious of the first seat belts as they thought that they needed to leap out from the rolling car...

But I guess all proposed options are better than having just lap belt. The lack of usable upper mounting point is a drawback and makes the installation of any 3 point belt difficult. But as your racing seats will have pass through holes the easiest way is to use the rear seat belt mounting points. If your car hasn't got rust issues in that area they should be pretty sturdy. I'm not sure though if the are high enough as I couldn't find a picture where I could figure out how they would work out. The desired angle for the shoulder belts is 10-45 degrees from the horizontal line.

I couldn't find a picture of the linked 3 point belts mounted in a car but it could be a belt kit that will attach behind the door. Those could solve your problem too.

[JR]

Its a straightforward procedure to weld in the third nut to allow for a three point belt install. Its no big deal.

Quality race seats are totally fine. Made in China knockoff seats however, are crap. They collapse in crashes usually.  Just make sure you're buying from a reputable brand and you'll be fine.

[myk]

Ok here is the deal and current situation.  
-own a 68 charger early build
-no shoulder belt and no provision of a bolt hole for shoulder its blank there its a Dec. 11 of 67 build date they didn't add in the bolt threads till after 1-1-68, rumor only.
-I have generic lap belts right now where you click it and pull on it to tighten down, aftermarket.
-stock seating and bad foam cushion and bad springs so YES the longer I sit in my car I shrink in fact once I get in im 2inchs from hitting the carpet from center of my ass.  
-no I do not plan to do a roll cage this car is a daily driver status car


I have ordered two racing seats after sitting in a friends of mine and felt so comfortable vs stock seating and it has the holes in the shoulder are of the seat where a seat belt can go.  Im trying to figure out whats a SAFER WAY!!  mind you SAFER as in better than what I have not good as modern cars, but BETTER since I know our cars will never be as safe as a modern car unless someone has retrofitted their car with air bags, tested the new crash system etc....

I discussed this at other forums and the CLOWNS told me I need to THROW AWAY MY CAR!!!  BECAUSE ITS UNSAFE!!!  I did not tell them what kind of car I drive but I tell them its a 68 and it originally came with lap belts.

Things I have seen on other cars such as this car, but I believe this car is a track car only and is a member here...did not want to reveal his name since he is a popular guy among us 2nd gen charger folks that I posted pics of.

One thing I have seen and Mike Musto does this on his 68 is that his shoulder belt attaches to the anchor points in the rear seat, but from what I read that is also UNSAFE.  

JR, I like that idea of those seat belts im gonna look into those......

Thanks for everyone's responses im just gathering OPTIONS right now how to set this up and like em all.  Of course it will come down to my decisiosn to pick one, but like I said though either lap belts or SOMETHIGN ELES and based on info I have given it to people after I tell em I have lap belts they tell me to THRASH THIS CAR and get something safer.

Who the f**k told you to throw away the car?  Charger-envy, for sure.  The "unsafe" argument against anything is relatively hilarious; you can get killed walking your puppy.  Anyway, I'm going to look into the link posted by JR as well, as the "Bill Hickman" pull and tighten seatbelt maneuver isn't good enough for the driving we do with our 2nd Gen's...

[1974dodgecharger]

Myk, I didn't tell them specifically what kind of car I drove just that I drove a old car  and told em the year...

I know I tighten my belt a lot while driving also maybe because my seat collapse so much over time on long drives, lol.

I think I have an idea what im gonna do..

harness bar with connection to the rear seat anchor area along with the 5 point harness, but use only 4 and connect the two shoulder ones over the harness bar, but connect em at the rear anchor points with the harness bar.  So the harness bar is more of a guide to stay at shoulder or above level......

[myk]

What seats did you get?

[1974dodgecharger]

What seats did you get?

nothing special, but more comfortable than stock.  I wanted a cloth setup since I drive this in the summer heats of AZ and vinly, leather, etc..just don't mix in the heat.

http://www.cipherauto.com/racing-seat/1013-series/cpa1013fbk

[myk]

I like it.  If I had known about that seat before I bought mine it could've been a candidate easily..

[moparnation74]

That is one sweet 68'.  I would take that throw away any day!

[JR]

I suppose if you're dead set on one, that's your decision. I'll say one more thing about them, tho.

No harness bar is meant to hold up to a crash on the street. They are generally meant to hold you in place at a lower speed, autocross type event where there is minimal chance of a collision.

In a head on street crash, generally the driver will submarine out from under the lap belt, risk spinal compression, or the bar will fail. The bar simply is not engineered to withstand a crash on the street.

I've said all I can say about it, good luck with it.

[myk]

Funny how you're less likely to be involved in a collision during a racing event, isn't it?  Thanks for posting the link to those belts JR; I'll definitely be looking into those...

[1974dodgecharger]

Harness bar is the 'guide' as I said JR, but my belt will be attached to the rear seat bolt anchor.  Im not gonna use it as a main source for anchor I know they will not hold up. 

I saw Mike Musto car like this and he drove that car over 50k miles across the states in his 68.....

Again whats better lap belts ONLY or?

I suppose if you're dead set on one, that's your decision. I'll say one more thing about them, tho.

No harness bar is meant to hold up to a crash on the street. They are generally meant to hold you in place at a lower speed, autocross type event where there is minimal chance of a collision.

In a head on street crash, generally the driver will submarine out from under the lap belt, risk spinal compression, or the bar will fail. The bar simply is not engineered to withstand a crash on the street.

I've said all I can say about it, good luck with it.

[1974dodgecharger]

That is one sweet 68'.  I would take that throw away any day!

NOT as sweet as yours moparnation74 I seen many pics. 

[JR]

Well I can reccomend Schroth 4 point harnesses for a street driven vehicle if you're dead set on them. They target standard street vehicles and are a little more forgiving in a crash. The idea behind them is that the right strap gives some in a crash to replicate a shoulder belt restraint some. (I still am for welding in the missing nut in the roof, but strongly reccomend this brand if you're going this way). Schroths are meant for cars that still have the factory restraints in them. Meaning you drive to an event with your stock belts, and use their harness at the event. But, given your desire for a harness, I think this is a better option than a standard race harness.

http://www.schrothracing.com

(You may have to call them to explain what you're building and get their recommendation for a specific part number, I don't know one off hand for this application).

Here's a good FAQ to them. Turns out specific ones have been DOT certified street legal. Which is good. Standard, SIMPSON type fixed harness are absolutely not street legal.

http://www.soloracer.com/harnschrothfaq.html

I can tell you also I highly doubt the harness bar will hold up in a frontal collision even as a guide. I believe I've read that in a frontal impact, the driver can briefly feel up to 25 G's of force. There's no way the bar in the first pic will sustain those forces.

However, since you're dead set on a 4 point, I'd say ditch the harness bar all together and use the Schroths mounted in the rear seatbelt mounting points.