Why wasn't the 440 available with a 4 spd after 1972?

[EccentricMagpies]

Then I seen this thread back from '08 talking about GG and his production numbers.

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php?topic=40728.10;wap2

[sdweatherman]

IIRC.......from an article I read, mid 70's, emissions were a big part of it.

Can't remember the car mag, but it stated manuals were a lot harder pass then autos.....there was a "puff" effect from shifting. Given the fairly crude emission and lack of FI at the time......makes sense to me.

Great discussion guys. OK, three votes for emissions - and I can believe that there were possibly two different emissions criteria - a several minute average and a few seconds instantaneous criteria. Makes more sense to me now - and makes sense why the 4 speed was still offered on the smaller Cu In engines - easier to pass emissions. If anyone runs across any documentation on this subject to solidify it, please post.
Thanks again, Scott.

[ply72rr]

The Dana 60 was not available any longer and the Dana was mandatory behind 4 speed equiped 440 and Hemis.
There were only 23 spline 4 speeds after 1972 also and 440 and hemi engines required the 18 spline hemi transmission.

[Nacho-RT74]

mmm interesting theory!, but we got 9 1/4 anyway

[Ghoste]

The Dana could easily have still been installed, it was/is still being manufactured.  I'd be more inclined to think the decision to drop the Dana was based on dropping the 440 first.  The 440 had been well defanged by 73 so it may not have even needed the Dana anymore.

[Nacho-RT74]

I'd be more inclined to think the decision to drop the Dana was based on dropping the 440 first.  The 440 had been well defanged by 73 so it may not have even needed the Dana anymore.

[Chargerguy74]

The Dana could easily have still been installed, it was/is still being manufactured.  I'd be more inclined to think the decision to drop the Dana was based on dropping the 440 first.  The 440 had been well defanged by 73 so it may not have even needed the Dana anymore.

I agree, but the '73/'74 (and '72 for that matter) 440 wasn't really defanged in comparison to the '71. The '73 440 was rated at 280hp and 380 ftlbs net. The published '71 440 numbers for Plymouth were 305hp and 400 ftlbs net. I think if this info was well known, the 72-74 cars wouldn't be written off as family/old man/straight up luxury cars by the "muscle cars ended in '71" people, or the "last year for the Charger was '72" PERSON (you know, cuz the '72 looks like a 71).

[Ghoste]

I was thinking in terms of available performance options but you make an excellent point about gross ratings versus SAE net.  Did the cam or heads change for the 72-72 440's?

[Challenger340]

I could be wrong here, just going to throw this out there....
But my recollection of the 4 speed Trans demise behind the 440's in the passenger cars specifically, was the switch to CAST Crankshafts in the 440's.
They just were not sure if the new CAST CRANKS in a 440's could stand up to the shock load of a 4 spd clutch dump over time.

The shorter stroke 400 Engines were given a reprieve with 4 spds being still available for a couple of years thereafter('73 & 74) as being a "weaker/safer" brethren, nonetheless,
it was felt the  4 stick was a little "risky" behind the actual CAST Crank 440's in the passenger Car lineup so was it dropped.

Interesting to note also;
The only Forged Steel Crank 440 Crank Engines in those years moving forward, were "using up" NOS Forged Crank stock for Truck production, a heavier application in conjunction with 6-pack rods(also being dropped)
That is why it is not uncommon to find '73 and '74 "Truck" 440 Engines with Forged Cranks and 6-pack Rods., just using up the remaining inventory stock.

[Chargerguy74]

Why the switch to cast if they were still using up forged cranks in the trucks? The 400 4 speeds were steel cranks in 73/74. Not sure why they would continue to run steel cranks in the 400 4 speeds, but choose to stop running steel in the 440, if stock was still available. I'm sure after the '72 production figures, they would've known not many would've sold anyway.

Ghoste, I'm not sure of the answer to your question. I'll have to look up some part numbers.

[Challenger340]

Why the switch to cast if they were still using up forged cranks in the trucks? The 400 4 speeds were steel cranks in 73/74. Not sure why they would continue to run steel cranks in the 400 4 speeds, but choose to stop running steel in the 440, if stock was still available. I'm sure after the '72 production figures, they would've known not many would've sold anyway.

Ghoste, I'm not sure of the answer to your question. I'll have to look up some part numbers.

Who knows.... all I am saying is my understanding was; they went to a CAST CRANK in the passenger car 440's.....  so no 4 speeds.

As it relates to the question "why no 440 Engine 4 speeds ?

[HPP]

Don't loose sight of the fact that emissions performance was/is looked at in fleet terms. If you can achieve even a .1% reduction in emissions across a million units, you have just met your obligation under the law to reduce total emissions. If a single option is bumping you above that line, then it doesn't take a lot of discussion to eliminate or change that option to pull things back in line.

[Chargerguy74]

Yeah, to me, it just seems like the reason they dropped the forged crank was because they dropped the 4 speed, and not vice versa. No reason to put the forged cranks in 440s if there were no 4 speeds, so use up the forged crank stock in the trucks.

[bordin34]

About a month ago I found a 73 Charger in a junkyard. It had a 440 with a 440 vin, a/c, a four speed with what looked like a factory floor hump, a standard dash, and a 9-1/4" rear.

[Chargerguy74]

About a month ago I found a 73 Charger in a junkyard. It had a 440 with a 440 vin, a/c, a four speed with what looked like a factory floor hump, a standard dash, and a 9-1/4" rear.

Was there a fender tag? Lots could have happened in 40 years. A Rallye dash would've been correct for a U code 73.

Didn't the 9.25" rear roll out during the '74 model year?

[bordin34]

I didnt think enough to check or take pictures of the fender tag and only took this one picture. It was definitely a U-code though. From the picture I can see it has the rallye valence too. I remember it had A/C too and was definitely a factory big block car.

[RallyeMike]

I think it was factored by most all of what is stated. The car industry was changing driven by insurance, emissions regulations and fuel prices. What we saw was an industry shift away from performance cars, including the loss of the Hemi, the six pack, and then the 440 4 speed. The performance industry continued to progressively decline for many years ..... and then came the dark ages of the 80's 

As far as 73+ 440 4 speed cars. I do not believe there were any. I have been interested in 73-74 Rally U code cars since I got my first in 1987 and I have never seen a legit 440 4 speed car. Of course there were not that many 73-74 U-code cars ever built, so if a few slipped through, they would be a small percentage of a small production run. I believe the factory literature is true that the biggest engine available with the 4 speed was the 400. As usual, if anyone is going to claim they know of a one of none car, they need to be ready to step up to the plate with definitive proof. I'd love to see one 

[bordin34]

This is the place the car is at if anyone is interested, East Brunswick Foreign and Domestic Car Parts .

[71charger_fan]

I would guess it was emissions but indirectly. It costs money to certify an engine/trans combo and the take rate for 440s as a percentage of sales was low and the percentage rate of manual trans orders was low across all engines. I'd surmise there was no point in spending money to certify an engine/trans combination that would likely sell in the hundreds if that much.

[HPP]

This was also the beginning of the financial decline of Chrysler, so I could see them not wanting to spend money on non profitable combinations.

[TUFCAT]

It costs money to certify an engine/trans combo and the take rate for 440s as a percentage of sales was low and the percentage rate of manual trans orders was low across all engines. I'd surmise there was no point in spending money to certify an engine/trans combination that would likely sell in the hundreds if that much.

  I support that as being the best answer.

[bordin34]

Apparently someone bought it and is trying to flip it. I found this ad on craigslist. Definitely not a rallye .
This is the description, "Original big block 4 speed car."

[Chargerguy74]

If not a Rallye (or not an SE) it wouldn't be a factory 440.

[EccentricMagpies]

Certainly not the original motor if it has AC.   4 speed - 440 of any B-body car were never ever equiped with AC.

[bordin34]

I remember the car being a U-code but I could be misremebering. I am however 100% sure it was not an M-code and was a factory big block. That would mean it has to be a 400-4 but I think I would have remembered a P or N in the vin.