Richmond Six Speed Swap Info (Musclecar Overdrive)

[phat69charger]

I just seen this page for the very first time, since I started to search for information about swapping a 6 speed transmission into my Charger. I've been looking for about 3 years now!

I know a lot of mopar owners want that convenience that the other cars like chevy and ford have had for some time already with having a overdrive manual transmission, I think one of the biggest problems is there's no one is posting good swap info, well at least on this board anyway, I contacted Richmond over a year ago and spoke to the tech guy there and talked about swapping my four speed out with there 6 speed ROD.

I posted the info on moparts and a link to it on the old board, I didn't have any pictures to post of the actual modifications as they were done but a few members posted some pictures of the finished job,  I was just looking around on the Summit Racing site and seen this in the Street & Strip section, if you don't do your own work and your not skilled with tools then you don't need to attempt it anything like this because it's not a bolt in like so many people prefer, the pictures are not the best they could be but there better than no pictures at all, it's enoungh for you to be guided through the job verses no guide at all, play the slide show you might have to refresh it make it show the page and also read all of the article so you don't post a question that already been answerd on that page, there's also a size comparision chart page of a A-833 and 6 speed ROD :
http://www.summitracing.com/streetandstrip/tech_content.asp?ID=AE0EBE71-C451-4263-8275-BEB985783502

[is_it_EVER_done?]

Though I didn't bother reading past the intro paragraph in your link (didn't need to), My question is WHY do you think this is a good swap? The reason I ask is as follows:

1.   The transmission is only rated for 450 Lb.Ft. of torque. Thats fine if you are running a stock 383, but even a mild 440 will push this limit. - Your link then states that one was put behind a stroked big block. The stroked big block will put out FAR more than 450 ft.lb., and could destroy the trans in an instant. -- This does not sound like an "improvement" in the trans department to me.

2.   What is the purpose of this trans? With the gear ratios that are standard, it would only be suitable for a small block, light weight, road race type car. First is to low, and 5th is 1 to 1. far to many gears for drag racing, and 6th is only about what a stock overdrive is, so top end is no better than - say - a later model truck.

3.   You have to cut and modify the torsion bar cross member. If there was any benefit to the trans, that may be OK, but as I stated above, the trans offers no improvement over either stock, or other trans options, so all the body modifications are a tremendous waste of time.

4.   Jamie Passion (Passion performance) offers a gearset, and even an aluminum case that  is far-far Superior for high torque, heavy cars, if you want to use an external linkage transmission ( as is the one you posted). If you really want to upgrade, the Tremic TKO 600 (as the Keisler system offers), is an internal rail shifted 5 speed that has far better gear ratios than the ancient Richmond you posted. That Richmond may have been state of the art 25 years ago, but it can't hold a candle to a Tremic. Plus the Tremic does not need you to cut your torsion bar cross member, and is rated for over 600 ft/lbs. of torque, and has been proven to effortlessly handle well over 700 ft.lbs!

5.   My last point is that you state that there "is no good swap info" on this board! On this point you are absolutely WRONG! This board has an amazing amount of "real world" input. I read all the Mopar boards, but this is the only one I participate in because it is the best cross section of "enthusiasts" on the net. this is due to people asking/wanting/answering "real world" questions, not just "post count padding" input, that the other boards have. I would put the "tech" info offered up here against ANY automotive board.

[Rocky]

   At the bottom of the article they even suggest Keisler as an easier kit to install.  After comparing the ratios, I can't understand why anyone would go with the Richmond box unless they wanted to spend too much money for the same thing.

[phat69charger]

  At the bottom of the article they even suggest Keisler as an easier kit to install.  After comparing the ratios, I can't understand why anyone would go with the Richmond box unless they wanted to spend too much money for the same thing.

Well at least you read some but you didn't do anymore research after that, standard gear sets are just that look at the Richmond 6 speed ROD PDF Pages 20-24 on the second page Gear input/Cluster 22/37 are your gear options to choose from:  http://www.richmondgear.com/01pdfs/pages20-24.pdf

Also if you read all of the paragraph near the bottom they said "There were no kits available when we documented this swap, but today companies like Keisler Automotive Engineering offer swap kits and components to make the job easier."

[phat69charger]

Though I didn't bother reading past the intro paragraph in your link (didn't need to), My question is WHY do you think this is a good swap? The reason I ask is as follows:

1.   The transmission is only rated for 450 Lb.Ft. of torque. Thats fine if you are running a stock 383, but even a mild 440 will push this limit. - Your link then states that one was put behind a stroked big block. The stroked big block will put out FAR more than 450 ft.lb., and could destroy the trans in an instant. -- This does not sound like an "improvement" in the trans department to me.

2.   What is the purpose of this trans? With the gear ratios that are standard, it would only be suitable for a small block, light weight, road race type car. First is to low, and 5th is 1 to 1. far to many gears for drag racing, and 6th is only about what a stock overdrive is, so top end is no better than - say - a later model truck.

3.   You have to cut and modify the torsion bar cross member. If there was any benefit to the trans, that may be OK, but as I stated above, the trans offers no improvement over either stock, or other trans options, so all the body modifications are a tremendous waste of time.

4.   Jamie Passion (Passion performance) offers a gearset, and even an aluminum case that  is far-far Superior for high torque, heavy cars, if you want to use an external linkage transmission ( as is the one you posted). If you really want to upgrade, the Tremic TKO 600 (as the Keisler system offers), is an internal rail shifted 5 speed that has far better gear ratios than the ancient Richmond you posted. That Richmond may have been state of the art 25 years ago, but it can't hold a candle to a Tremic. Plus the Tremic does not need you to cut your torsion bar cross member, and is rated for over 600 ft/lbs. of torque, and has been proven to effortlessly handle well over 700 ft.lbs!

5.   My last point is that you state that there "is no good swap info" on this board! On this point you are absolutely WRONG! This board has an amazing amount of "real world" input. I read all the Mopar boards, but this is the only one I participate in because it is the best cross section of "enthusiasts" on the net. this is due to people asking/wanting/answering "real world" questions, not just "post count padding" input, that the other boards have. I would put the "tech" info offered up here against ANY automotive board.

1. Richmond Gear does rate the transmissions conservately at 450 ft,lb, but if you had done some resarch like I have and called the company and talk to the tech person about how much HP there customers are running on the trans you would know that it takes a lot more than what it's rated at, If you owned richmond gear and your customers were breaking your transmissions with to much HP how long would you be in business? and think about this, all of the 6 Speed Rod for any make of vehicle are all rated at at 450, reguardless of the input shaft diameter size, so don't you think that the Mopar Rod having the largest input shaft would be a little stronger than the other makes like the smaller GM and Ford ones?

2. The purpose of the trans is clear! The gearsets are not standard to any factory produced transmission check out the richmond site, http://www.richmondgear.com/01pdfs/pages20-24.pdf  and the gears are not too low you just don't understand gearing, if you have two cars built the same but one engine redlines at 5500 and the other one redlines at 9500 you think they still need the same transmission gears ? I guess you think gears for drag race transmissions are suppose to be a certain gearset, check out the Jerico site,  http://www.jericoperformance.com/22.html  as far as top end I live in the south and there's not too many places to run wide open safely, like if I lived in TX or AZ. I've been over 150 Mph in my second 69 charger I owned back in the 80's when I was younger and back then I didn't care or think things could go wrong, a deer or road debris could have been the end of the story for my ass at that speed, so now it's all about what the Rpm's are at normal highway speed.

3. I'm not a all original type of mopar car person, keeping it all factory is not important to me, and anyone that has a engine with lots of power knows that you have to modify the car to take that power and put it to the pavement.

4. Jamie Passon has excellent transmisions, and I contacted them about a year and a half ago about the strength and gearing of there transmissions, the factory A-833 standard 23 spline will take more HP than you think, I was really educated by what Passon Performance told me, if you don't know how much power you can put to a stock 23 spline A-833 you can call them and find out like I did already, well I don't know about what you consider a upgrade as far as a Tremec TKO goes there okay for what they are and I don't knock them, if you want a really strong Tremec you better off with a T56 they use them in Vipers,  http://www.undergroundracing.com/video/video.htm  the TKO's are not as strong as you think.

I been told about a TKO failing at the Torque load that it was rated for, but I doubt if they will say it again to anyone else, as far as the gear ratios that you can get a TKO in or Richmond ROD, call any Tremec dealer you want and ask what they have or offer in the TKO's and then call Richmond or go on there site and see what's the difference, and if you go with a gear set for the chevy and ford's a lot of options, yeah the Doug Nash's were state of the art for it's time, and the A-833 transmission design was state of the art even longer ago than that, but for some reason Passon Performance still uses the base design from long ago and even chevy and ford guys use the A-833's in there cars, I think that you need to do more research and talk to more people outside of your circle of knowledge, you state a Richmond can't hold a candle to a TKO, but the Richmond was Doug Nash originally has been tested and proven for a long time now, if things were like you stated Richmond and Passon both would be selling Tremec TKO's.

Like I said before if you have a lot of power your going to have to modify the car to put the power to the pavement, so cutting or adding to the car is not an option to put the power to the pavement.

[phat69charger]

Though I didn't bother reading past the intro paragraph in your link (didn't need to), My question is WHY do you think this is a good swap? The reason I ask is as follows:

1.   The transmission is only rated for 450 Lb.Ft. of torque. Thats fine if you are running a stock 383, but even a mild 440 will push this limit. - Your link then states that one was put behind a stroked big block. The stroked big block will put out FAR more than 450 ft.lb., and could destroy the trans in an instant. -- This does not sound like an "improvement" in the trans department to me.

2.   What is the purpose of this trans? With the gear ratios that are standard, it would only be suitable for a small block, light weight, road race type car. First is to low, and 5th is 1 to 1. far to many gears for drag racing, and 6th is only about what a stock overdrive is, so top end is no better than - say - a later model truck.

3.   You have to cut and modify the torsion bar cross member. If there was any benefit to the trans, that may be OK, but as I stated above, the trans offers no improvement over either stock, or other trans options, so all the body modifications are a tremendous waste of time.

4.   Jamie Passion (Passion performance) offers a gearset, and even an aluminum case that  is far-far Superior for high torque, heavy cars, if you want to use an external linkage transmission ( as is the one you posted). If you really want to upgrade, the Tremic TKO 600 (as the Keisler system offers), is an internal rail shifted 5 speed that has far better gear ratios than the ancient Richmond you posted. That Richmond may have been state of the art 25 years ago, but it can't hold a candle to a Tremic. Plus the Tremic does not need you to cut your torsion bar cross member, and is rated for over 600 ft/lbs. of torque, and has been proven to effortlessly handle well over 700 ft.lbs!

5.   My last point is that you state that there "is no good swap info" on this board! On this point you are absolutely WRONG! This board has an amazing amount of "real world" input. I read all the Mopar boards, but this is the only one I participate in because it is the best cross section of "enthusiasts" on the net. this is due to people asking/wanting/answering "real world" questions, not just "post count padding" input, that the other boards have. I would put the "tech" info offered up here against ANY automotive board.

5. Well I don't know you and you don't know me, and I guess you assumed that my statement was about all of the swap information on this board not being good info, FYI it was a statement about this post which is about "Richmond Six Speed Swap Info", not all other swap information of this board, and if you have ever been a member of the old board for any length of time, you would know that I posted plenty of richmond six speed swap information to update what was already posted on the old board, I posted info on moparts also but like you said, I to think that this board seems to have "the best cross section of enthusiasts" because most of us are Charger owners.

I think you and a lot of members like you would benefit from reading all of the infomation in that area that's been posted before you post your replies and comment on the subject, that you didn't do any research on or know about, one of the first things you said is you didn't bother to read past the first paragraph in the link, because your question was "WHY do I think this is a good swap"  if you read the first paragraph you would have seen that I have been searching for six speed swap information for about 3 years, not thirty day or less, my post was about a page on the Summit Racing Street & Strip page that I had not seen in three year of searching for information about transmission swaps, it wasn't about why it was a good swap, it was about the pictures that no one had of the steps that you do when cutting and modifying the cross member and floor.

If you were a member of the old board you would know why I think the Richmond ROD is a good swap, do you know why some members can run different rear end ratios, I kind of answered that already but you have to read all of the post to know what the answer is, I even said read all of the article on that page so you don't ask a question that's answered on that page and you did just the opposite of that, well I think I said enough already.

Just think about this, any of the Tremec TKO suppliers sell just the TKO's transmission for between $1890 - $1974 for just the transmission they use to cost less than that for the first generation TKO's, the Richmond ROD was I think $2695 - now it's $3099, why is one a $1000 more than the other? the Richmond ROD has straight cut gears and is noisy, and A-833's have straight cut gears also, why pay more for a noisy trans? Claimed Torque ratings and what it can really operate at is to be tested, so if you look at it from that point of view, there's plenty of Doug Nash and Richmonds still around there just in a lot of chevy's and my first A-833 never seen too many light duty days when I was younger and it was already a teenager by the time I got it into my Charger.

[phat69charger]

I should have posted these pictures from the summit site when I posted this info a few months ago, read my initial post and you should understand  what the pictures are showing you, I tried to get bigger pictures from summit racing to post, but the person I contacted at summit said the company that made up the web page has the larger pictures, and they didn't how to contact them, so here's some of the pictures from the link if you haven't seen them, I personally think that there's enough shown in these pictures to get you pointed in the right direction if you are thinking of doing a Richmond swap, these pictures are small but I think they show enough detail to get the Idea.

If you follow the link in the initial post above and go to the slide show there's written info that goes with the pictures if you have questions about them.

[phat69charger]

More shots

[phat69charger]

One more of the Speedo Cable

[John_Kunkel]

1. Richmond Gear does rate the transmissions conservately at 450 ft,lb, but if you had done some resarch like I have and called the company and talk to the tech person about how much HP there customers are running on the trans you would know that it takes a lot more than what it's rated at, If you owned richmond gear and your customers were breaking your transmissions with to much HP how long would you be in business?

People have been overpowering and busting BW T-10's for over 40 years and they're still selling them.

and think about this, all of the 6 Speed Rod for any make of vehicle are all rated at at 450, reguardless of the input shaft diameter size, so don't you think that the Mopar Rod having the largest input shaft would be a little stronger than the other makes like the smaller GM and Ford ones?

Only if the input shaft diameter is the weak link, if the internals are the weak point input shaft diameter is irrelevant.

Whether or not the 450 advertised torque rating is overly conservative, I would use it as the benchmark for use.

[dodge freak]

Richmond makes the best ring and pinion so I would think their trans are good too. Its too much money for me but it be my dream to have one.

[andyf]

I have the Doug Nash 5 speed in my B body.  (Richmond bought the Doug Nash tooling years ago so they are basically the same tranny)  The 6 speed tranny isn't that much bigger than the 5 speed so I don't think the swap is much harder than the one I did.

If I was doing a swap today and I wanted a 6 speed I'd probably go with a Viper type tranny.  Keisler builds some parts to make that swap easier to do although it still requires a lot of work since the tranny is pretty big.

I'm not sure a 6 speed is really needed in a B body car with a big block since it is easy to build a ton of torque with the motor choices available now.  I like having the 5 speed since I can drive to the track in 5th and then race using the first 4 gears.  A second overdrive would be fine for the drive home but it is a lot of extra work for not a huge amount of gain.

[phat69charger]

Here's a link:  http://www.5speedtransmissions.com/strength.html  Me I look in as many places I can that has information about what I think of to use in my Charger, be it a mopar board, chevy or ford board, any place that has info is where I look, information is information take in the information you need for your application, a BW T-10 I don't know much about them is that the one that looks like a GM muncie, I thought Borg Warner was brought out by Tremec like Doug Nash was taken over by Richmond, which would all be the same thing as most of the light duty transmissions names begin with a T- ? this page says Tremec T-56 six speed Formerly Borg Warner  http://www.standardtransmission.com/products.html  I think that there all the same tranny like AndyF said just a differnet Company name.

This site has plenty of information that you can reference for free all you need is a computer and internet service, everyones point is taken in and used as needed, all of the information I look up just helps me make a choice of what I need for my purpose, I'm building my car for street use and I have some parts parts that are more or less race parts, I don't plan on doing any racing other than a blast down the track a few times to see what it will do, I think the hardest thing to do is to find the balance of what parts to use, my car is a street car not a race car, but it's impossible to use or leave some of the stock parts on the car once you get the engine up to a certain power level, When I spend money on my charger and it's damn near the price of the car when it was new you better bet I have done all of the research and info gathering I think I could have done.

So my point is this post is just information I found for my purpose, you can take what you need from it or add on to it as you please it's free and I'm sure it can help someone make a choice that wants a little more gearing than a A-833 offers, check out this gearing link it helped me make a choice of what rear ratio to run based on the numbers I got using my info for my Charger, and not someone else's http://users.erols.com/dmapes/GEARCLC.HTM