69 Hemi Charger clone - Hypothetical WIW?

[DixieRestoParts]

Cue Twilight Zone theme and imagine Rod Serling's voice:

Consider if you will, a man that buys a moderately rusty F8 Green '69 Charger R/T 440, automatic out of a field. It's engine less. But, he doesn't restore it to original. He decides to make a Hemi Clone and sell it for big bucks.

Ok, end Rod's voice. I've been wondering about this for awhile and I'm would like opinions on a "clones" value in todays market. If a guy takes the F8 car above and does a decent Mopar Nats field level restoration on it. Not, OE, but nice. Replaces moderate sheet metal. Say, trunk, floorboards, rear deck and quarters. Changes the color to "Resale Red" and adds a 4-spd. Covers up all traces of factory a/c, welds in torque boxes, modify's K-frame. Adds typical crate Hemi, but he correctly details it. What is this car worth?

Nevermind the cost he incurs to build it. What would it bring on the market? I see these types of cars for sale from time to time. The sellers usually are asking north of 75K. For not much more money(25Kish), you could have the real thing with a pedigree. Maybe not an OE winner, but a nice car.

There is no right or wrong answer here. I'm just wondering what you guys think. For me, I think it's the value of a standard restored 440 car plus the cost of the Hemi. But, that's just me. Thoughts?

[cdr]

I am with your thought on 440 car + hemi.

[ACUDANUT]

30K car. Who is "Rod Serling" 

[Lord Warlock]

Rod Serling was the guy that did the voiceover for the entry sequence to the Twilight Zone TV show in the 50s and 60s. You still see reruns on tv every now and then.  dammit, now i feel old just knowing that fact.   

As to values of a clone, depending on how nice it looks, i'd say the 40-60 range was reasonable, and to the right person could go as high as 80, seen others on BJ auctions that were clones that went higher, but doing a color change paint job would subtract the value in my eyes.  It also depends on how the current car market is, right now its been a bit slow and our cars aren't as high priced as they used to be.

[ACUDANUT]

I say 30k because it is green.

[DixieRestoParts]

I say 30k because it is green.

No repainted "Resale Red", or did you mean was Green? Also, if you don't know who Rod Serling is, watch a few old Twilight Zones and Outer Limits. You might get a kick out of it.

[Ghoste]

I agree Dixie.  I think some of that is a hangover from 2007 when people would put a Crate Hemi in a 318 car add an RT stripe and then at B-J get very nearly the same money as a legit car.  And it was called a "tribute" car.
Some got caught with cars when the bubble burst of course and some are just still stuck in that frame of mind.
A clone is a clone is a clone is a clone.  Your scenario is a 440 car with an added engine and should be worth that..

[Homerr]

Nicely restored values....IMHO:

$35k    R/T
-$3k     F8
-$3k     color change
+$3k    color change to red
-$2k     non-numbers motor
-$2k     trans change
-$3k     less AC, patch sheet metal for AC
+$25k   Hemi


I personally don't like seeing an R/T getting this much modification.  I'd rather see a 318 car get the Hemi.

[triple_green]

it's worth the value of the original car, plus the cost of the hemi and accessories and maybe half of the labor to put it all together.

[DixieRestoParts]

Thanks Guys, good insightful comments!

[myk]

Can't accurately guess without pictures.  How this "resale red" Hemi tribute car presents to potential buyers will also decide the final price...

[BROCK]

Rod Serling was the guy that did the voiceover for the entry sequence to the Twilight Zone TV show in the 50s and 60s. You still see reruns on tv every now and then.  dammit, now i feel old just knowing that fact.   

As to values of a clone, depending on how nice it looks, i'd say the 40-60 range was reasonable, and to the right person could go as high as 80, seen others on BJ auctions that were clones that went higher, but doing a color change paint job would subtract the value in my eyes.  It also depends on how the current car market is, right now its been a bit slow and our cars aren't as high priced as they used to be.

Mr Warlock gets my vote IF you read it with % markers on the figures it will be true for every market!!!!!!!!!!

[Troy]

In today's dollars? Hard to tell. A few years ago when the "real thing" was approaching (sometimes exceeding) $200k the clones were selling for $70-80k. Now that there are some decent examples of real ones in the $100k range I can't imagine the clones held their value. Now, most clones start as small block or 383 cars so starting with an R/T the value would naturally be higher. I don't know that a "normal" person could get their money back out of it right now. Some of the "correct" Hemi specific parts are only available through the used or NOS market and they are NOT cheap. If you have access to the right pipeline and/or friends in the right place you may have better luck. It's easy to drop a crate Hemi in but the cost could double by the time you add the correct intake, carburetors, air cleaner, air filter, valve covers, k-frame, transmission components, starter, wiring, frame stiffeners, badges, etc. Unless the car is a #1 you could be facing a significant loss. I say that because #1 cars always have a market - especially among people with lots of money but no concern for matching numbers.

Troy

[Ghoste]

Clones were oftentimes going for more than that Troy, sometimes they were coming within 20k of the real thing when they were over the 100k threshold.

[BROCK]

See!  With Mr Warlocks' 40 - 60 for average being read as 40% - 60% etc etc
the real expectations hold true today & in the future

[polywideblock]

here's an example of what your talking about 49K  but I think the dealer is a bit shonky

   
                                    http://www.carsforsale.com/used_cars_for_sale/1970_dodge_charger_195744708_20




 

 

[bill440rt]

Tough to say.
You'd need to find a buyer that's also OK with the above modifications, and doesn't mind spending money with the understanding of what the car once was. That's the difficulty selling any modified car. You need to find a buyer that has the same tastes.
If we're "only" talking money here, he might get more return if doing the same modifications to a base model 318 car than starting with a legit R/T car.

[DixieRestoParts]

Here is the car that got me to thinking about this and posting the question.

http://www.streetsideclassics.com/showcar.php/atl/1230/1969-Dodge--Charger--R/T

Why in the world with all the 318 cars out there would you do this to a real R/T car? And with only 1400 miles on it, you want to sell? I can understand a guy who drove it for a few years and then decided to move on. But, if the builder did this to try and turn a buck, I think he failed.

[Ghoste]

Seems high but most broker prices are.  I wonder what he would actually take?

[BROCK]

Both Polywide & DixieResto have the same examples.  Both are 440 R/T cars
that are valuable in their own right as delivered from the factory stock.  What
does a non numbers matching drivetrain do to the value?  If that were screwed
all ready....why not move on up? 
I turned 18 in 1981.  In those days tranny  & engine swaps were the way to go. 
Nobody cared about numbers matching anything.  Oh we read about it for say
a 69 T/A or a Shelby being a big deal.  Then again it didn't matter for a Ferrari
or a 356 Cabriolet.  But, I did keep my cars numbers matching.  Then again, I
didn't throw a rod out the side of the engine block either.  I've known & worked
on a certain 71 GTX since 1980.  It has had that entire time a 66 440 block. All
else is original save for a color change.  It is now back to the original color after
a complete & exhaustive rotisserie body restoration.  What value will it have? 
Replacement block or added Hemi?

[Ghoste]

I think in this case its less about the value of numbers matching stuff and more about how much more realistically should a Hemi swap add to the car.

[Lord Warlock]

I haven't seen many 2nd gen hemi chargers, real or clones sold for less than 60k, 1st gens yes, hemi coronets yes, i've seen those in the 40-60k range, I know real hemi chargers aren't bringing the $$ they were 5 or 10 years ago, but they will again one day.  I'm more apt to lean toward what a totally restored RT in #1 or #2 condition with a non matching motor would pull, which really isn't that much less than a NM car is.  So I'd put it around 45 to 60k for a #1 car with NM motor, then add the cost of a hemi which is what...15-20k? don't know since i haven't priced hemi's lately. 

I used to speculate muscle car prices but stopped before the prices went into the stratusphere on BJ's. Now i really don't care since I will never be getting another old musclecar.  Its either the Charger RT that i already own, or I'll buy myself a Mr. Norm's supercharged challenger srt8 with 600 to 1000 hp.  The charger is already coming close to what i've wanted to do with it for 30 years.  I still will need to update the suspension, AC system, and maybe the odd engine upgrade such as a cam or heads, but other than that I'll be happy to drive it around, but I'd really like a more modern muscle car for daily duties, or buy a cobra kit car already finished for weekend joyrides. 

[1974dodgecharger]

LW,
i feel the same way about my car once i get fully done with suspension and do a long road trip with her i feel like I'm done, maybe to complete my persona satisfaction a hemi crate engine i there and then do another road trip and sell her for a Daytona project of some sorts.  Other than that my car runs and drives and on occasion the carb gives me issues thats it.

[DixieRestoParts]

I think in this case its less about the value of numbers matching stuff and more about how much more realistically should a Hemi swap add to the car.

Yes, what I'm asking is, what do you think the value of this car (or similar built one) is in today's market?  I still think it's the value of the quality of the restoration of the car in question plus the cost of the Hemi parts, probably minus the labor. So, a nice 318 car with a Hemi would be worth less than a 383 car which would be worth less than a 440 car with the same transplanted Hemi. All other things being equal because they are worth less in the market restored with NM or NOM engines. I think this is a good discussion, and appreciate all your comments. It's good food for thought. As we all know, a car is worth what "someone" is willing to pay for it.

The car in my link is within an hour of me. I might go check it out just to see the quality of the work.

[Troy]

Here is the car that got me to thinking about this and posting the question.

http://www.streetsideclassics.com/showcar.php/atl/1230/1969-Dodge--Charger--R/T

Why in the world with all the 318 cars out there would you do this to a real R/T car? And with only 1400 miles on it, you want to sell? I can understand a guy who drove it for a few years and then decided to move on. But, if the builder did this to try and turn a buck, I think he failed.

I'm bummed that they removed all traces of the A/C. Definitely a shame on a real R/T. They didn't say if they pulled the original 440 or a replacement but if they yanked the original this was a colossally stupid move.

Troy