Why 4 speeds cars cost more then auto?

[1974dodgecharger]

manual is fun to drive, dont care about quicker times or so just plain fun over automatic.

[69wannabe]

I duuno if the 833 4 speeds were more expensive for Chrysler to produce ?
I suspect they were much CHEAPER to produce, compared to the much higher Casting & Machining difficulty for a 727 Auto... NO Comparison, so I think "if" the pricing was higher for the 833 4 spd, it may have had something to do the higher "warranty" costs also maybe ?
Just speculating here,
but a Clutch and a Stick are a little harder on U-Joints ? Rear Ends? Spring bushings ? Engine RPM's etc., etc all of which Mopar warrantied for a year ?

No question that by mid-70's and the advent of things like HEMI-J Torque Convertors for the Auto Trans Cars, that the jig was up for the "average" Guy could go much faster, and much more consistently, than most all with an 833 stick, and waaay cheaper with the easier on parts auto.

Unless you were Ronny Sox, and had a highly modified 833... the Auto/Convertor was just waaay faster... still is today !

I see it all the time with 'New" Guys I build Engines for.... they want a 500hp 'street' Engine, and they want the 833 4 spd for driving feel & fun !
OK great....
until they get their ass handed to them by a 5.0 Mustang trying to speed shift them 833 clunkers under Load ?
or,
get tired of bagging Clutches, u-Joints, rear end troubles, yada, yada. ?
or,
head to a track and get an actual 1/4 mile timeslip ?
This last one is the kicker... because to a man over the years, everyone one of them who eventually switches to an Auto/Convertor(all do eventually), they SEE the actual full 1/2 second E.T. drop at the strip, no other changes, and NEVER go back !
They don't call the Auto/Convertor Torque "Multiplication" for nothing ?

An Automatic won't really make a car "quicker", it will however make the car more consistent over the manual, unless the driver is really on his game, and a seasoned driver, the manual really comes into play when you put a few curves to the track, then the automatic takes a backseat, that being said...I don't think you'll see me switching over to an automatic anytime soon...more like never

Amen to that!! I was actually looking for an automatic when I ran across my charger and at that time it was a 383 factory 4 speed car. I was thinking at the time it would be easier to come up with the more plentiful automatic than to even look for a 4 speed car but I ran across it in the atlanta journal in the classic car section. I actually purchased the car from Breet Popwell who said he also had an actual general lee from the show and was a good friend of John Schneider which later I found out was all true. I didn't care either way I was excited just to be getting a charger!!! After several years and people actually commenting on the car being a 4 speed I am glad it ended up this way and it has a pistol grip shifter now which has been in there for several years and is awesome to drive!!!

[myk]

manual is fun to drive, dont care about quicker times or so just plain fun over automatic.

AGREED.  The manual may be "slower" in most cars, but rowing through your own gears is priceless...

[Mopar Nut]

I'll take one of each.

[lloyd3]

For the street wars of the 70s and 80s the stick had obvious advantages. Quicker launches at the redlight and then using the tranny to help slow the car at the end of the run comes to mind. A big block with almost 500 ft./lbs of torque coupled to a 4-gear is balls-to-the-wall fun!  R/T stick cars were also built with this in mind, thus the 18-spline gearbox, the 9 3/4 rear axle, more leaf-springs in the suspension, bigger fuel-line, and bigger brakes. Ma Mopar knew what was going to happen and tried to design around it, with a modicum of success. The fact that so few survived is a good indication of how most were used. Automatics are far-better mannered in city traffic and for easy crusing, but for serious barnstorming you must have a stick.

[myk]

Well, with respect to the 'OP I wanted a stick but they were selling for more; yes, even in the 90's.  Ironically enough, I'll one day have to spend a good amount of money to convert my car to a manual...

[bull]

Driving a muscle car is very visceral and exciting. Adding a manual gearbox to that experience makes it even more so. More fun/higher demand/fewer numbers = more desirable and costly.

[Ghoste]

I don't know if its the manual trans that is slower so much as its us.  We all like to think we can shift like Ronnie Sox but the truth is that we are delusional.

[six-tee-nine]

The thing with automatic transmissions here in Europe is the fact that its an old habit to drive manual.
In the sixties and seventies most people here drove a VW beetle or something similar with a powerplant from 1 up to 2 litres. Even top end cars came with manual transmissions like 3 litre BMW's. Auto transmissions are seldom here on classic cars except for some S class mercedes's with a 3.5 V8 and other really top class rides.
And people still buy manual here altough modern automatics drive as good or even better than manual cars.

It's changing none the less, there are more automatics now than ever here

[cavemanno1]

We have to see that petrol is way more expensive here then over there at the land of the free and automatics use way more of the precious liquid,don't they then manuals!If i'm wrong please correct me.

High end cars are automatics but whoever buy them don't care about mileage!

[Rallyecharger]

I believe everyone here had some good points about the manual vs auto theories. Here is my take on it....
1) back in the 60's/70's the automatic was the favored choice of the majority of the buyers market, the ladies/wives/girlfriends could drive the car if it was auto making the new car purchase more persuasive.

2) most people (guys) claim they can drive a standard, half of them suck at it.....hence the survival rate of the musclecar cars in general w/standard trans.  i.e, clutches exploded or smoked, engines over-revved and bottom ends grenade....

3)Majority of buyers market from when my Father was selling cars requested auto's and smaller engines for fuel economy. ie 318,auto Chargers by the dozens.  I questioned him one time long ago "why didn't everyone order 440 4spd Charger R/T's......??"  His response was that every young guy wanted the big motor, hi-po-this that bullshit, but they didn't have the CASH....plain and simple. The ones with the cash, usually middle aged guys, wanted auto's as everyone could drive it and when it came to resale it was sold quickly with no real issues of being an abused 4spd car.......   Another story to go along with this is that they did get a dark green '68 Charger 383 4spd in one day, while transferring it from the auction the young car jockey guy tore the driveshaft out of the car on route back home, he was fired and my Father started using women to drive the cars back and forth.

4) 4 speed cars usually had the shit driven out of them, again survival rate issue....

[lloyd3]

It would seem that we agree that original 4-speed cars were not all that common and that even fewer have survived. With that thought in mind, what does that do for value?  A 30% bump in price? 40%?

[ACUDANUT]

We have to see that petrol is way more expensive here then over there at the land of the free and automatics use way more of the precious liquid,don't they then manuals!If i'm wrong please correct me.

High end cars are automatics but whoever buy them don't care about mileage!


[/quote

Land of the free to pay out of the ass in taxes and having a Monkey for a president. 

[cavemanno1]

Acudanut!

I know you think it's bad for you guys because i guess you always lived there but how much taxes you pay?My wife worked for the government tax office and she had to pay 55% of her salary.Our duty fees for buying products is 27%,the highest in Europe!Now seeing how you guys live and whatever you have compare to us is mindblowing.5 car garages with 4-5 cars huge houses,boat etc.I know not everyone is that fortunate and can't generalize it but you guys are lucky!

[ACUDANUT]

Don't believe everything you see on TV.  That kind of lifestyle (big properties, boats, airplanes, expensive cars)  are maybe 5 percent of the population here in the U.S.    Most of us just have a 1-2 garage with 1-3 bedrooms.

[Troy]

Acudanut!

I know you think it's bad for you guys because i guess you always lived there but how much taxes you pay?My wife worked for the government tax office and she had to pay 55% of her salary.Our duty fees for buying products is 27%,the highest in Europe!Now seeing how you guys live and whatever you have compare to us is mindblowing.5 car garages with 4-5 cars huge houses,boat etc.I know not everyone is that fortunate and can't generalize it but you guys are lucky!

We, as a nation, have high taxes but nothing like most of Europe. We sock it to the corporations mostly so individuals get a break. Most of the people who complain about them don't truly pay nearly as much as they could under different circumstances. About 50% of the citizens here don't pay any income taxes and hardly anyone (except business) imports anything. You are considered under the poverty level if you make $22k per year or less (I know some people around the world have just fallen out of their chairs). Most states tie their income tax to the federal guidelines so if you don't pay in to federal then you get a free pass in the state as well. Even if you avoid the income taxes, there are plenty of other taxes to go around. There is a "gas guzzler" tax and a "luxury tax" rolled in to the price of a new vehicle if it meets the standards but it isn't something that gets paid yearly. Each state sets the sales tax (like your VAT) and taxes/fees on cars individually. In Ohio where I live (for example), our sales tax is 6.5% and my yearly car registration is about $50. I was able to declare most of my old cars as "historical" so I only had to pay a $39 fee and it's good through 2050. Right next door in Kentucky they pay yearly "property tax" on their vehicles and, if you live in the city, there may also be a parking fee. It's significantly more than Ohio but their gasoline tax is slightly less and I'm sure their income tax is a bit lower.

The company I work for has businesses all over the world so I get to compare notes on things like this (as long as I remember to ask!). We're pretty fortunate for the most part.

Back to the topic - I'd say a 4-speed adds 10-30% to the value of the car depending on condition. Guys buying these cars today are looking for what they *think* they'd have ordered if the had the opportunity when the cars were new. However, in most cases these cars are toys that get driven on nice days where, back then, they were daily drivers and the requirements would have been vastly different.

Troy

[Troy]

Don't believe everything you see on TV.  That kind of lifestyle (big properties, boats, airplanes, expensive cars)  are maybe 5 percent of the population here in the U.S.    Most of us just have a 1-2 garage with 1-3 bedrooms.

Yeah, that's slumming it.

Troy

[cavemanno1]

Don't believe everything you see on TV.  That kind of lifestyle (big properties, boats, airplanes, expensive cars)  are maybe 5 percent of the population here in the U.S.    Most of us just have a 1-2 garage with 1-3 bedrooms.

Yeah, that's slumming it.

Troy

Don't get it from the tv.I see the list of cars you guys have,some of you have more then 3 cars.I used to live in The States,well travelled for a year and see how people live compare to us.Ohio sale tax 6,5%,ours 27%! If you buy anything over $30k you have to pay "luxury tax".

There are lots of American cars over here but they are cheap newer once!I had the only '69 charger Ever here in this country and there is only one '68.Not because they don't like them because everyone who likes muscle cars says their favorite is the '68-69 charger!In the Neatherlands there are 59 1969 dodge charger and 54 1968 according to their club!That says something,isn't it.Trust me you are lucky!

Sorry,back to the topic!

[Ghoste]

Not all of those lists of cars are exactly driving vehicles.    But yes, it's easier to find them more cheaply here because at one time they were widely available and just used cars.  To a lesser degree, the European car fans over experience the very same thing as you do.

[cavemanno1]

The difference is not too many 40+ year old European cars are still alive!I have never seen one myself part from a '69 Aston Martin.Over here i have seen lots of  60-70's camaros,buicks,chevys,fords but no mopars tho.That says about the quality of the European cars.

[Ghoste]

They're there, just hidden in storage, the Mopars too.  If you aren't seeing vintage Euro stuff there then imagine trying to find spares for your 53 Healey over here.

[kokxville]

Well let me give a respond,i'm fortunate to have a 4 speed r/t and i'm in the Netherlands.

Trust me,it isn't cheap over here either.
Salestax is 21%,the gasoline pice for the cheapest fuel unleaded 95 is €1.73 per liter   That's $2.35 in us dollars times 3.8 is $8.93 per gallon  
Thanks to the european Union,we all got screwd and it's getting worse and worse the following years for us car fanatics  
When i think about it,i'm getting all mad about it,but let's not go there.

@ Ghoste,

[moparfan53]

It would seem that we agree that original 4-speed cars were not all that common and that even fewer have survived. With that thought in mind, what does that do for value?  A 30% bump in price? 40%?

FWIW, Hemmings old car price guide says add 20% for 4 speeds, NADA classic car price guide says add 10%. However with 2nd gen Chargers I think the percentage of 4 speed cars was lower than other makes/models, so the value increase might be higher. Take '69 models for example; out of approximately 90,000 Chargers built, approx 7,200 were 4 spd cars (about 8% of production).

[Ghoste]

And left to guess I would have said the two publications list it the other way around. 

[polywideblock]

the percentage is even smaller on 3rd gen cars