Why 4 speeds cars cost more then auto?

[cavemanno1]

Why is it there are so less of  4 speeds made then auto?

Why do they cost more then auto?Is it because less made or more fun to drive?

I know you guys prefer auto trans over there.We only start getting them in high end cars!
I know old cars with 4 speed is not as good as the new ones today but they only made manual trans over here in Europe back then as well!

[kab69440]

Supply and demand. Far fewer were produced, even fewer survived and more buyers prefer a manual to an auto.

[cavemanno1]

Supply and demand. Far fewer were produced, even fewer survived and more buyers prefer a manual to an auto.

And back then muscle car guys didn't prefer manual to auto?If so the companies would have supply what was demanded,wouldn't they?

[tan top]

they are rarer that a auto , I would say more performance oriented drivers would order a stick ,  manual trans cars with same spec engine , & rear end gear ratio  will always be faster topend  ,  
   back in the day manual transmisions are nothing like todays manual gearboxes ,  for 99 % or driving  auto is the way to go  , but for one percent of the time  going out sunday morning & giving the motor a good hiding & feeling  big block mopar power  through a stick shift !! ,    ,    dare say with in a week of driving a manual charger round town  , stop go traffic narrow streets etc , your be wishing is was a automatic  

    stick with a automatic  

 having said all this , going to convert mine to a manual trans  sometime   prolly a keisler 5 speed  



incar  video of a 4 speed charger

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x7thAbUfGxw

[cavemanno1]

Since these cars are for fun and not everyday use i would change mine or buy one 4 speed!Drove and automatic and it wasn't as mush fun as a 4 speed!Mined i have never driven a 4 speed musclecar but seeing some and hearing them are way more fun!Auto trans are strange for us over here.We always had manual trans and 20-25 years ago when i first tried to drive we only had Russian cars and they couldn't be worst then muscle cars!
When i was in the army drove big Russian trucks and their clutch was unbelievably hard!

4 speed for me any day!  

[War wagon]

With more and more modern cars not even offering a standard transmission as an option you will see the prices of original stick cars rise.
Supply and demand
Most enthusiastic drivers prefer manual

Mine has a 727 for now but will be a 6 spd one of these days.
You just have so much more control over the car with a stick, makes it a much better experience IMHO.
For now I make do with a reverse valve body, manual shift kit in my auto....... Can't just sit there 

[b5blue]

  Automatics had come to be rugged reliable performers by the mid 60's. The Chrysler 727 being one of the best available anywhere. Even for drag racing consistent times were just as important as good times in "Bracket racing" so it was a natural progression that most Americans and many racers preferred the automatic transmission. The 4 speed was more of a "Sports car" option for those who liked rowing through the gears constantly. I have to admit I was part of that crowd in the 70's and 80's. I flogged many 4 speeds from many makers by choice back then, even to the point of breaking transmissions or engines on a few non Mopar rides.    Now I can't wait to get my Charger back in daily use, I'm sick of shifting the 5 speed in my Cherokee even after tweeking all the power I can get out it's 4.0 6cyl motor.
 Having bought my Charger from my friend who has owned his own transmission shop the last 30 some odd years, I was surprised to find a clutch peddle tucked under the new carpet when I got to tearing into what I'd bought. The car was his first car ever and he'd had it 17 years when I bought it 18 years ago. It had slowly been turned into a drag race only car for his shop and for two seasons he'd run a four speed at the strip. He got slower times so had switched back to the 727 but just left the peddle set up in place. (I never noticed it should have the wider brake peddle as all my Mopars were stick shift!) It was easy to find someone who wanted that B body peddle set in trade for the automatic, to the point where in swap I got not just the peddle assembly but an entire power brake set up in even trade. (The power brake had been stripped off for racing also.)    

[Mike DC]

 
The Charger was the more expensive/luxurious of the two midsize 2-door Dodges in the 1960s.  That would have affected how many were ordered with automatics.  The Dodge Coronet was a cheaper model. 

There were two groups of American buyers who ordered manuals 45 years ago, the people trying to keep the car cheap & fuel-efficient, and the people wanting a sports car.  The first group was not buying very many Chargers. 



Automatics were just starting to be a well-made item in those days, as others have said.  The late 1960s was after automatics became decent performers and before there was enough time for a backlash of sports car drivers wanting manuals anyway. 

[Ghoste]

And in the RT, the automatic was a no cost option.  Also worth mentioning that dealers and the manufacturers sales bank preferred cars with automatics to appeal to the greatest number of potential buyers.  And the automatic was worth more on a trade in, it would nearly add the cost of the option in the first place to the value of the trade.

[Challenger340]

I duuno if the 833 4 speeds were more expensive for Chrysler to produce ?
I suspect they were much CHEAPER to produce, compared to the much higher Casting & Machining difficulty for a 727 Auto... NO Comparison, so I think "if" the pricing was higher for the 833 4 spd, it may have had something to do the higher "warranty" costs also maybe ?
Just speculating here,
but a Clutch and a Stick are a little harder on U-Joints ? Rear Ends? Spring bushings ? Engine RPM's etc., etc all of which Mopar warrantied for a year ?

No question that by mid-70's and the advent of things like HEMI-J Torque Convertors for the Auto Trans Cars, that the jig was up for the "average" Guy could go much faster, and much more consistently, than most all with an 833 stick, and waaay cheaper with the easier on parts auto.

Unless you were Ronny Sox, and had a highly modified 833... the Auto/Convertor was just waaay faster... still is today !

I see it all the time with 'New" Guys I build Engines for.... they want a 500hp 'street' Engine, and they want the 833 4 spd for driving feel & fun !
OK great....
until they get their ass handed to them by a 5.0 Mustang trying to speed shift them 833 clunkers under Load ?
or,
get tired of bagging Clutches, u-Joints, rear end troubles, yada, yada. ?
or,
head to a track and get an actual 1/4 mile timeslip ?
This last one is the kicker... because to a man over the years, everyone one of them who eventually switches to an Auto/Convertor(all do eventually), they SEE the actual full 1/2 second E.T. drop at the strip, no other changes, and NEVER go back !
They don't call the Auto/Convertor Torque "Multiplication" for nothing ?

[Sublime/Sixpack]

Another thing to consider is that the automatic appealed to a larger group of buyers. Most women did not want to drive a stick shift car. If the man of the house was fortunate enough to have a wife that agreed to the purchase of an American performance car it was going to be one with an automatic trans.

Personally I still place more value on a four speed car (from the 60's & 70's) but in all reality the auto. is a better all around choice.

[Cooter]

Bottom line is this.... The dealers knew full and well what was gonna be back in their shops for warranty work.
Nobody wants to sell a stick today because of this. Even though the computer knocks the timing back between shifts to save on driveline parts. They know what's coming. Blown clutches, engines, trannies, rears, etc.
Plus, a manual car brand new was considered ' standard'. Not worth much come trade in time.
Only the hardcore racers be it street or track wanted the stick.

Kinda like the four door cars today. Most saw an automatic were ready to buy and just bought it.
Too many were ready to settle as they figured well, if this is all I get, I guess this will do then.

[Troy]

If you look at the numbers, the low performance cars had automatics almost exclusively. As you get up to the Hemi the numbers even out. There were far fewer of these cars being sold to performance enthusiasts than to normal folks needing a daily driver. A Charger was a premium car at the time so it came bundled with a lot more options even at the lowest price level.

Today, you can't even buy a new Charger with a stick and it almost happened that way with the Challenger. Americans as a whole (or at least American car companies) have decided that it's just too inconvenient to drive a stick (while eating breakfast, drinking coffee, putting on makeup and reading the paper) so nearly everything here is an automatic. Europe seems to be about the opposite. Just curious, I know you guys get taxed on engine size. Do you get taxed on transmission?

Troy

[ACUDANUT]

You know it's funny, back in the day weren't manuals cheaper ? They are today.

[BROCK]

European & Japanese manual shift cars from the 60s & 70s were a pleasure
to drive.  I tried a 71 Mustang w/ Cleveland & 4 speed.  Those Long style
clutches required a hell of an effort on the clutch pedal.  The Borg, Beck &
McCloud style clutches really do make the playing field even.  Odd that the
clutch on my 64 F100 never bothered me - but, that wasn't a performance
application either.  
I agree that auto trannies are easier on the warranty claims.  Now driving
as in the above video shows really doesn't help that argument.  Trust me
when I say I stayed in way too much of a hurry to short shift like in the
video.  Yes, even in an old pickup with 3 on the tree (it had a 3/4 race 312
in it).  
I have an 833 for my 72 Charger.  It will be a hotrod & driven as such
The clutch is a McCloud though

[tan top]

 crank up the sound 

     http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IqkLPXXrohw

[BROCK]

crank up the sound 

     http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IqkLPXXrohw

Just like that!  Made a bobblehead out of the cameraman

[cavemanno1]

crank up the sound  

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IqkLPXXrohw

Now that is what I'd like in my charger! Nice one Steve!

Maybe these cars are expensive to buy and keep.Old,loud gas gaslers with a heavy clutch(if manuals)slower than a 5.0 mustangs but i don't care because they are so much fun!It's like my bike,Ducatis are expensive to buy and run they have personalities have to take care of regularly!Japanese bikes are cheaper,more reliable mules that would take you to the end of the world!But then sitting on that v twin listening her sound is just worth every penny!

If i want a car that shifts easily,doesn't cost an arm and a leg,cheap to run i will buy a Honda!

[lloyd3]

You can burn more rubber and raise more hell in a 4-gear, period. A four-speed is a man's car.

[c00nhunterjoe]

crank up the sound 

     http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IqkLPXXrohw

Just like that!  Made a bobblehead out of the cameraman
[/quote

Thats my car.... dont poke fun at the shifting! This is right after i did the conversion and didnt have a shifter handle. This video was shot with a pair of vicegrips as a shifter handle....]

[A383Wing]

When ordering a new car in '67.....the automatic trans was a $20 - $30 more price than the manual 4spd option....this is for the Charger that I quote from....

just thought I would share that tidbit of useless info.....

carry on

[tan top]

crank up the sound 

     http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IqkLPXXrohw

Just like that!  Made a bobblehead out of the cameraman
[/quote

Thats my car.... dont poke fun at the shifting! This is right after i did the conversion and didnt have a shifter handle. This video was shot with a pair of vicegrips as a shifter handle....]

yeah I remember you posting that video  good stuff , thought you made another one a bit longer though 

[c00nhunterjoe]

crank up the sound 

     http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IqkLPXXrohw

Just like that!  Made a bobblehead out of the cameraman
[/quote

Thats my car.... dont poke fun at the shifting! This is right after i did the conversion and didnt have a shifter handle. This video was shot with a pair of vicegrips as a shifter handle....]

yeah I remember you posting that video  good stuff , thought you made another one a bit longer though 

I did. It was a labor day cruise. Hit the gears harder a couple times in it. if anyone lives local and is on the fence about auto or stick, we can go for a ride to help make up your mind!

[cavemanno1]

Troy,

We have a combined tax system that calculates your engine size,horsepower,weight of the car and emission level!They tax the living hell out of people!
The average salary over here is $400,in England where i lived is $4000.Well that was what i was making anyway.A liter of petrol is $1.8-2 depends on the gas station.We have 5-6 highways and have to pay for them every time we are on it.I could go and on but i don't wanna nag about it!

You do 5 km/h over the speed limit and they charge you with $200,just over 5km/h!!!
Tell you that this ain't the land of freedom!

On the plus side if you do a burnout and the cops see you they take your papers away if you don't do it again for their friends.Well at least that happaned to my friend.They told him to do a burnout let him go and other cops stopped him about 5 minutes later to tell him to do a burnout for them as well


c00nhunterjoe,

Where do you live,I'm can not make my mind up about the 4 speed
Think need to go over there just to make sure that is what i want!
 

[DAY CLONA]

I duuno if the 833 4 speeds were more expensive for Chrysler to produce ?
I suspect they were much CHEAPER to produce, compared to the much higher Casting & Machining difficulty for a 727 Auto... NO Comparison, so I think "if" the pricing was higher for the 833 4 spd, it may have had something to do the higher "warranty" costs also maybe ?
Just speculating here,
but a Clutch and a Stick are a little harder on U-Joints ? Rear Ends? Spring bushings ? Engine RPM's etc., etc all of which Mopar warrantied for a year ?

No question that by mid-70's and the advent of things like HEMI-J Torque Convertors for the Auto Trans Cars, that the jig was up for the "average" Guy could go much faster, and much more consistently, than most all with an 833 stick, and waaay cheaper with the easier on parts auto.

Unless you were Ronny Sox, and had a highly modified 833... the Auto/Convertor was just waaay faster... still is today !

I see it all the time with 'New" Guys I build Engines for.... they want a 500hp 'street' Engine, and they want the 833 4 spd for driving feel & fun !
OK great....
until they get their ass handed to them by a 5.0 Mustang trying to speed shift them 833 clunkers under Load ?
or,
get tired of bagging Clutches, u-Joints, rear end troubles, yada, yada. ?
or,
head to a track and get an actual 1/4 mile timeslip ?
This last one is the kicker... because to a man over the years, everyone one of them who eventually switches to an Auto/Convertor(all do eventually), they SEE the actual full 1/2 second E.T. drop at the strip, no other changes, and NEVER go back !
They don't call the Auto/Convertor Torque "Multiplication" for nothing ?

An Automatic won't really make a car "quicker", it will however make the car more consistent over the manual, unless the driver is really on his game, and a seasoned driver, the manual really comes into play when you put a few curves to the track, then the automatic takes a backseat, that being said...I don't think you'll see me switching over to an automatic anytime soon...more like never