Not many 68s and 69s around these days?

[cdr]

ok I'll play,,,i would GUESS 15K LEFT 

[hatersaurusrex]

I think something often overlooked is the fact that low build numbers have far more consequences than just how many cars are out there to be restored - I think it's also impacted how many restorable cars are left to rot becuase of scarcity of parts.   Think of it this way:

Chevy and Ford built something like 4 million Camaros and Mustangs during the same span as the 2nd gen B-Bodies - which only saw about 250K cars produced.   So when that owner who put his Camaro up on blocks in 1979 finally decided to get off his ass and fix it a decade later, there were probably 2  million sitting in junk yards to pick parts from, probably still tons of NOS parts you could  get straight from the dealer, not to mention the crapload of small block donor motors and trannies (the car kind, not the sissy boy kind).   And look! Fenders for 50 bucks right there in the JC Whitney catalog!   Hell, he probably saw a homeless guy in a vacant lot just this morning cooking beans using an NOS 396 oilpan as a pot and a tri-power manifold as a camp stove.   That crap is everywhere.

Meanwhile, the 2nd Gen charger owner only has maybe 50K cars nationwide to choose from, and when spread out all over the country, that's not a ton of cars per junk yard.  Plus the General Lee builders cleared out all the good parts 10 years ago and decided to wreck, rinse, repeat until all the front end parts were dried up.  Dodge dealers didn't stock nearly as many NOS parts because they didn't sell that many of the cars to start with, and had been picked over too.   Finally, no AMD repops will happen for another 10 years and our Charger owner doesn't feel much inclined to put thousands of dollars and hours work into a car that will be a bondo bomb anyway.  So, he quits on on the project and sells it for cheap.   The next guy sits on it for 5 years or so before getting off his ass to start the project, and maybe he slathers it up good with filler even gets it to primer.   Then one day he sees a Barrett-Jackson auction, and then thinks 'oh hell, I better keep that car, it's gonna be worth 100 grand or more!'.  He sits on it for ANOTHER 5 years while it takes up his mother-in-laws carport space and collects rodents and rust.  He THEN hears about a new thing called 'the internet' so he goes online and sees 5 restored cars like his with ASKING prices of 75K and thinks his car could bring way more than that with just a paint job.   He's validated!  He's gonna be rich! So he sits on it and laughs when he gets offered the 5-10K it's worth.   This guy is currently watching every single car restoration show on Velocity and Discovery and dreaming about one day when he'll sell his 318 powered rustbucket for enough money to retire on.

And this is all you see all over ebay and craigslist, is a bunch of 4th and 5th owners of cars who think they're sitting on a goldmine while the car rots into the ground and gets closer and closer to never ever coming back.

[Dino]

I think something often overlooked is the fact that low build numbers have far more consequences than just how many cars are out there to be restored - I think it's also impacted how many restorable cars are left to rot becuase of scarcity of parts.   Think of it this way:

Chevy and Ford built something like 4 million Camaros and Mustangs during the same span as the 2nd gen B-Bodies - which only saw about 250K cars produced.   So when that owner who put his Camaro up on blocks in 1979 finally decided to get off his ass and fix it a decade later, there were probably 2  million sitting in junk yards to pick parts from, probably still tons of NOS parts you could  get straight from the dealer, not to mention the crapload of small block donor motors and trannies (the car kind, not the sissy boy kind).   And look! Fenders for 50 bucks right there in the JC Whitney catalog!   Hell, he probably saw a homeless guy in a vacant lot just this morning cooking beans using an NOS 396 oilpan as a pot and a tri-power manifold as a camp stove.   That crap is everywhere.

Meanwhile, the 2nd Gen charger owner only has maybe 50K cars nationwide to choose from, and when spread out all over the country, that's not a ton of cars per junk yard.  Plus the General Lee builders cleared out all the good parts 10 years ago and decided to wreck, rinse, repeat until all the front end parts are dried up.  Dodge dealers didn't stock nearly as many NOS parts because they didn't sell that many of the cars to start with, and what was there is slim pickings.   Finally, no AMD repops will happen for another 10 years and our Charger owner knows he's gonna put a lot of work into a car full of bondo.  So, he quits on on the project and sells it for cheap.   The next guy sits on it for 5 years or so before getting off his ass to start the project, but one day he sees a Barrett-Jackson auction, and then thinks 'oh hell, I better keep that car, it's gonna be worth 100 grand or more!'.  He sits on it for ANOTHER 5 years while it takes up his mother-in-laws carport space and collects rodents and rust.  He THEN hears about a new thing called 'the internet' so he goes online and sees 5 restored cars like his with ASKING prices of 75K and thinks his car could bring way more than that with just a paint job.   He's validated!  He's gonna be rich! So he sits on it and laughs when he gets offered the 5-10K it's worth.   This guy is currently watching every single car restoration show on Velocity and Discovery and dreaming about one day when he'll sell his 318 powered rustbucket for

And this is all you see all over ebay and craigslist, is a bunch of 4th and 5th owners of cars who think they're sitting on a goldmine while the car rots into the ground and gets closer and closer to never ever coming back.

Funny as this is, there's a lot of truth in there unfortunately.  Hell, you probably made a few members cry.   

[cdr]

X2 dino

[hatersaurusrex]

I think something often overlooked is the fact that low build numbers have far more consequences than just how many cars are out there to be restored - I think it's also impacted how many restorable cars are left to rot becuase of scarcity of parts.   Think of it this way:

Chevy and Ford built something like 4 million Camaros and Mustangs during the same span as the 2nd gen B-Bodies - which only saw about 250K cars produced.   So when that owner who put his Camaro up on blocks in 1979 finally decided to get off his ass and fix it a decade later, there were probably 2  million sitting in junk yards to pick parts from, probably still tons of NOS parts you could  get straight from the dealer, not to mention the crapload of small block donor motors and trannies (the car kind, not the sissy boy kind).   And look! Fenders for 50 bucks right there in the JC Whitney catalog!   Hell, he probably saw a homeless guy in a vacant lot just this morning cooking beans using an NOS 396 oilpan as a pot and a tri-power manifold as a camp stove.   That crap is everywhere.

Meanwhile, the 2nd Gen charger owner only has maybe 50K cars nationwide to choose from, and when spread out all over the country, that's not a ton of cars per junk yard.  Plus the General Lee builders cleared out all the good parts 10 years ago and decided to wreck, rinse, repeat until all the front end parts are dried up.  Dodge dealers didn't stock nearly as many NOS parts because they didn't sell that many of the cars to start with, and what was there is slim pickings.   Finally, no AMD repops will happen for another 10 years and our Charger owner knows he's gonna put a lot of work into a car full of bondo.  So, he quits on on the project and sells it for cheap.   The next guy sits on it for 5 years or so before getting off his ass to start the project, but one day he sees a Barrett-Jackson auction, and then thinks 'oh hell, I better keep that car, it's gonna be worth 100 grand or more!'.  He sits on it for ANOTHER 5 years while it takes up his mother-in-laws carport space and collects rodents and rust.  He THEN hears about a new thing called 'the internet' so he goes online and sees 5 restored cars like his with ASKING prices of 75K and thinks his car could bring way more than that with just a paint job.   He's validated!  He's gonna be rich! So he sits on it and laughs when he gets offered the 5-10K it's worth.   This guy is currently watching every single car restoration show on Velocity and Discovery and dreaming about one day when he'll sell his 318 powered rustbucket for

And this is all you see all over ebay and craigslist, is a bunch of 4th and 5th owners of cars who think they're sitting on a goldmine while the car rots into the ground and gets closer and closer to never ever coming back.

Funny as this is, there's a lot of truth in there unfortunately.  Hell, you probably made a few members cry.   

Yeah I'm not out to pick at anyone.  I probably would have been that same guy had I gotten the car 20 years ago, but I was broke as crap 20 years ago, too

[Ghoste]

The generally accepted survival rate on musclecars is around 20%.

[Lord Warlock]

Attrition estimates are approximately 10% per year, for the first 10 years.  After 20 years it goes down a bit as people are either storing them or not driving them near as often.  I'm sure someone could do the math year by year to get an estimate, but that's all it would be, since many of us don't register the cars year after year if it is in storage.  I haven't registered mine since 84.  It would fit in the category of a potential driver though, the motor is in and it runs fine, but needs brake work and fuel system work before it will see street time, and its currently undergoing both since i'm out of work and have extra time available.  

Also, people didn't always know if a car was a rare one or a common one, other than the obvious clues of an RT badge.  When I bought mine I had never heard of an RT SE, and only after i researched it alot in the library (no internet back then) did i find only around 4600 were built.  Still really don't know how many of this color combo were made, just know until this year it was the only one i'd ever seen like it.  The duplicate is a boardmember and his was built on the same day as mine was.  His is also in better shape than mine is.

[Dino]

Yeah I'm not out to pick at anyone.  I probably would have been that same guy had I gotten the car 20 years ago, but I was broke as crap 20 years ago, too

We've all been in situations like that, it comes with the territory.  I pity the owner who has the dream car but is in way over his/her head.  
Those folks need some support and this is the place for it.

Those that have the light shining in their face yet blatantly ignore it...not so much pity.

Those that know full well they are ripping people off...well it is supposed to be a family friendly site so let's leave it at that.

[hatersaurusrex]

Yeah I agree totally on the people who are rip-off artists.  

I also know a lot of people with a classic but without the means to fix it will hold on to it simply becuase it allows them to keep dreaming.  Deep down they probably know they can't sell it for much, nor will they ever really have the means to fix it up right.    But they assume somewhere down the road things will change, and life just has a way of getting in the way of hobbies and dreams.

There's a ton of owners sitting on a rustbucket who probably look at it once a week and imagine driving it fully restored, windows down, and it makes them feel good, and so it's worth it to hold on to the car because people don't want to sell their dreams.   I fully understand that.   Then somebody comes along and says 'Your dream is worth maybe 1500 bucks on a good day, so I brought a grand in cash since you're obviously stupid for holding on to this car'.  Then they don't understand why the door gets slammed in their face.    

[Dino]

Yeah I agree totally on the people who are rip-off artists.  

I also know a lot of people with a classic but without the means to fix it will hold on to it simply becuase it allows them to keep dreaming.  Deep down they probably know they can't sell it for much, nor will they ever really have the means to fix it up right.    But they assume somewhere down the road things will change, and life just has a way of getting in the way of hobbies and dreams.

There's a ton of owners sitting on a rustbucket who probably look at it once a week and imagine driving it fully restored, windows down, and it makes them feel good, and so it's worth it to hold on to the car because people don't want to sell their dreams.   I fully understand that.   Then somebody comes along and says 'Your dream is worth maybe 1500 bucks on a good day, so I brought a grand in cash since you're obviously stupid for holding on to this car'.  Then they don't understand why the door gets slammed in their face.    

I fully agree.  I have been one of those potential buyers and all I can tell the seller (if they are normal and nice) that I will not be making an offer as the asking price and my offer will be too far removed to come to an agreement.  Most people can read between the lines and appreciate the wording.  No sense in being a jerk and pissing off someone, we have plenty of those in the world.  I get annoyed just reading some member's posts here.   

[HeavyFuel]

True statement someone mentioned that hidden chargers could be all over......but you'd never know.

Not 5 miles from me is a guy with a wealth of Chargers and MOPAR parts in general......and I mean lots of stuff.  He has parted out oodles of cars in his life and moved the stuff to eager restorers.

He's kept a few of the nicer Chargers for himself, but I've never seen him driving around.  Not at shows, cruise night...nothing.  One of his prizes is a '70 plum crazy RT/SE four speed car.  He's got a HEMI car that's been under resto for years.   Too busy working to finish it, I guess.

So this guy's got maybe 5 nice chargers, and they rarely if ever see the light of day.  

[Troy]

So...

Who would like to venture a guess on how many exist today?  And by "exist", we should agree that it's basically a car that is driving, or would be driveable with a reasonable amount of work/$$......not some total basket case roosting in a shelter belt.

Has anyone with good data and an analytical mind come up with some kind of ballpark figure, based on facts and variables like production numbers, attrition, shelf life, desirability, price of scrap metal, horsepower, "Cash for Clunkers"..........whatever?

Let's take '68 models.....roughly 90,000 built.  Do we think that there are 5,000 left?  2,500?   Maybe a thousand?   

The generally accepted survival rate on musclecars is around 20%.

I'd say somewhere between 20-30%. A while back when I was really looking I inspected over 200 68 Chargers that were somewhat local to me (within a couple hours drive). And those were just the ones I found for sale! I ended up buying 5 so most weren't all that great. Now this was 8-10 years ago before you could get all the reproduction parts that are available now AND I live in the Midwest where a lot of these cars were sold (and still remain). If I can see this many in person then there's certainly several thousand known to the public at any given time. I'd bet there are more hidden away than known - at least well known. I can think of several dozen Mopars in barns and garages that haven't seen daylight in 30 years.

It does seem like you don't see a lot of Chargers out and about. I can think of 15-16 drivable 68s in the area but probably only see 4-5 of them out in any given year. When I used to attend one particular cruise-in there could be as many as 5 Chargers out of 12-15 total cars. Not so these days. Now that someone mentioned it, I believe it is more likely that I'll see an E body than any B body. Odd when you consider the sheer number of Satellites, Belvederes, Coronets, Roadrunners, and GTXs that were produced.

Troy

[Ghoste]

True, it seems even in the world of well documented collector cars like Shelby Cobras there are previously thought destroyed examples coming out of the woodwork every once in a while.

[Lord Warlock]

I'd say many of us hoarders have an understanding of where current values are, or were at one time.  Although many don't think about it often.  The longer it sits neglected the less people think about it.  The problem is that if it sits a long time and starts rusting away, the people realize repairing it is beyond their mechanical ability, and then its a matter of deciding to spend money on a car that just sits there and isn't being used.  I'm kind of like that with my stealth, I hate to spend money on it while its not being used, and can't sell it till i get it running and roadworthy.  I also refuse to give away a car I spent over 20k fixing up 10 years ago. (not counting the original 23k price of the car).  

It usually takes something dramatic to shake us out of the doldrums of leaving it to sit and rot.  It took the death of a close friend my age to force me off my butt and get started on mine.  Realized if i kept ignoring it, I'd probably never see it on the road again, and vowed to make sure I was able to drive and enjoy it again. 

The e-body preference may change in the future, since you can buy newer challengers that look alot like the old ones and are alot easier to drive, and just as fast.  Plus they get just as much attention or more.  

[RallyeMike]

It doesn't seem like anyone drives their classic car anymore. I guess they are too precious. Hell, it's sp bland on the street anymore that I saw a jacked up 70s Maverick yesterday and actually got excited. Even a GM metric car on donks is something not boring. I may need help.

[Lord Warlock]

its not that they are too precious, its because the roads are filled with idiots talking on phones, or texting while driving.  While the old charger stops, it doesn't stop near as well as a new car does.  And around here traffic is heavy all the time, the charger was alot of fun on the interstate in the 80s which didn't seem so crowded, or back roads of Alabama where you didn't see a car for miles.

[Mike DC]

 
I agree that the low production numbers causes a snowball of factors to make the owners keep them parked even more than most other cars of the period.   

 

[myk]

its not that they are too precious, its because the roads are filled with idiots talking on phones, or texting while driving.  While the old charger stops, it doesn't stop near as well as a new car does.  And around here traffic is heavy all the time, the charger was alot of fun on the interstate in the 80s which didn't seem so crowded, or back roads of Alabama where you didn't see a car for miles.

I....WAS the king of proclaiming that anyone who didn't drive their classic, their Charger as often as possible was a waste of life.  However, as these cars get more rare and increasingly expensive to maintain, repair or replace I find myself guilty of hoarding and hiding my Charger from the hazardous public.  At this point in my life I've decided the Charger is for my own personal enjoyment and fulfillment; I don't care if the public knows that I have it or what they think of it or whatever the f**k.  My sweet time with the Charger takes place at about 2 in the AM, with nothing but empty stretches of freeway and the stars to guide me...

[Lord Warlock]

Have to agree with you there.  The charger is for my personal satisfaction, and i don't care if the rest of the family doesn't care, and just don't want to risk driving it around the morons with cell phones glued to their ears.  I think i'm getting old, when i'm in the car, i don't want to talk on the phone, if i'm not sitting at my desk, or in my chair at home, I don't need to talk to anyone.  My cell is only along with me for the off chance that the car breaks down.  Its safer to play at night (plus its cooler so the cars run better)

[Ghoste]

I'm lucky to live in a more rural area so I have a lot of empty back roads to travel.  I see a lot of old cars out, sadly even one or two out now in salt season on occasion, but I don't see a lot of Chargers.  Not out of Charger scarcity overall but just because this area saw a LOT of high performance Fords sold out of a local dealership that ran a very competetive Super Stock team in the sixties.
There are still a lot of good Mopars here too (someone had to establish a bar for all of these Fords to shoot for) and I see them out.  Just not as often as I see Cobra Jets.

[Cooter]

Yeah I agree totally on the people who are rip-off artists.  

I also know a lot of people with a classic but without the means to fix it will hold on to it simply becuase it allows them to keep dreaming.  Deep down they probably know they can't sell it for much, nor will they ever really have the means to fix it up right.    But they assume somewhere down the road things will change, and life just has a way of getting in the way of hobbies and dreams.

There's a ton of owners sitting on a rustbucket who probably look at it once a week and imagine driving it fully restored, windows down, and it makes them feel good, and so it's worth it to hold on to the car because people don't want to sell their dreams.   I fully understand that.   Then somebody comes along and says 'Your dream is worth maybe 1500 bucks on a good day, so I brought a grand in cash since you're obviously stupid for holding on to this car'.  Then they don't understand why the door gets slammed in their face.    

Amen. Might Copy this and I think I'll post it to FB everytime I see comments about how much of a tragedy it is to see a car rotting into the ground on one of those 'save it, or crush it?' Posts.....
Knowing the whole time those who reply don't have the time, money, or places to restore it either.

[Ghoste]

Not being able to save it doesn't make it any less of a bad thing though.

[1974dodgecharger]

Fck it i like showing off the charger daily.....

[lloyd3]

Good post. 20% remaining may be a bit high. When you take into account all of the cars that are sitting around for lack of funds....these cars are just circling the drain. Truly unmolested versions are far-more unusual, R/Ts are even more unusual.  Without having any real data to back up my gut-feeling, I'd have to guess between 6 to 8K decent, largely original cars remain out of the 50k per annum model era (68, 69 & 70). And, the reason you're not seeing them is everything that you've seen mentioned here. Crowded roads, and crappy/dangerous driving habits by a general public that drives crappy, plastic, throwaway cars.  Ten years ago when I'd take my car out I'd get far-more recognition from folks. The 20-somethings that I run across now don't even seem to recognize what I'm driving. It feels like I'm driving a dinosaur, and when you think about it, maybe I am.

[Homerr]

We don't even need to own a Charger to dream about them.  I don't own a Charger right now but I think about 'my' car every once in a while.  I'll own it soon enough.

It's a '70 R/T 4-speed car sitting in the 3rd-car bay of a garage in Anywhere, USA.  It's sitting high in the nose, without the motor and trans.  Those are the greasy lumps sitting under the workbench at the back of the garage.  The chrome and stainless are all stuffed diagonally across the interior.  The clutter of suburban living is packed around, under, on top of the car.  The kids bikes are leaning against the oxidized paint, camping gear unloaded from the summer trip is still sitting on the roof and decklid.  The smiley face the kids drew in the window dust last year is fading with a new collection of dust covering the car this year.

Now in December the Charger is cold to the touch, but it doesn't care.  It sits there every day.   In a few months that third garage door will roll up, the current caretaker will notice the tail panel and stand there for a moment considering all the good times he had with the Charger, his plans for it, and realize those plans aren't happening.  It would take a solid hour of work to clear out the space to roll the car a foot.  Maybe he'll think about his wife and the vacation she wants, or his kids and their college fund.  And this year, or maybe next, he'll decide that the memories of times with the Charger are more valuable to him and that the tinge of pain he feels when he sees it.