Questions about my VIN tag.

[TUFCAT]

Your exactly right Y1! 

I came out with a scenario on (page 14), but nobody commented on it and it sort of disappeared in the discussion.

I don't think op Eric knew about that a/c compressor in Randy's video.... MCG wrote: "when Dave Wise inspected the car this compressor assembly was not present".

MCG also wrote on pg.80: "Randy was quick to show us a very crude looking air conditioning compressor found on GM, Ford, and aftermarket a/c systems".

My guess is that compressor/bracket assembly was from a 70's Dodge 440 Motorhome. The upfitters installed their own a/c compressors as part of the conversion. It wouldn't be very hard to find a used York a/c compressor (with brackets) once used on a 440 powered RV in a junkyard or ebay.    

I watched video posted my familymopar to check out the orientation of those brackets.  Based on my low tech detective work, it appears the compressor is not mounted straight up. I can't tell how its mounted exactly but it could be leaning towards the drivers side, at a 45 degree angle or more....and might possibly clear the six pack air cleaner??    

I'm certainly NOT saying Chrysler would have ever done this...let me be clear!  This is strictly an aftermarket set-up.

I did some research and found out those York compressors were widely used by the aftermarket in the 1970's (just as MCG said) but the brackets had to be unique to a 440 engine. That's how I came up with the 440 motorhome idea.  

[TUFCAT]

We have guidelines we follow to guard against impropriety.  On another forum, someone referred to their own kind as "used car salesmen".  I completely agree!  The problem starts when some of the self proclaimed "experts" use their limited knowledge to plug the gaps with nothing more than hypotheticals.  They feel they have an inherent right to fill in the blanks or re-write history because they have been collecting information for many years.  This has somehow earned them the right to interject their opinions as a form of legitimate proof.  

These cars were nothing more than revenue for Automotive Companies when they were originally built.  Over the years, they have become collectable and iconic treasures.  Some "experts" feel the need to make up grandiose stories that promote a mystic to support their skewed agenda.  They turn a simple scenario into an embellished story to keep things interesting.  That's how these unique "One of None" Cars end up surfacing throughout the years.  Also notice how some here have attempted to deflect attention and blame someone else in hopes that the real perpetrators can slip back into the shadows without being noticed.

Aliases, improprieties, grandiose stories, mystics, skewed agendas, embellished stories, perpetrators, blame, shadows.... is this a crime novel or a Charger thread?  

[resq302]

That depends who is talking, Tom.  We have a lot of people who are in the law enforcement field who also have Chargers.  (and I mean the real 2 door chargers, not the 4 door versions we drive!)   

[ws23rt]

The path this thread has taken is a good reminder (for me as well) that what I think of as "the hobby" means different things for different folks.

I Bought my first new car at age 19 "A 69 superbee" so I am one of those that has been interested in these cars since they were new.
That however does not make me an expert on all the details of correctness but it does make me one of those that has watched the business side of the hobby jerk those like me around.

That the value of some of these rare cars has been high brings to the market those that are in it for a living. They are looking at the return that can be had by their efforts and are interested in moving cars.

Those that will buy restored cars that have cloned documents in the future will of course pay less than they would for the real deal. I see much discussion in the future about a true piece of history vs a copy of one. 

Hmm?  wonder who the expert on antiques road show will be to break the news to the guy with the one of one car---Maybe one of six of which only one is the real deal.

Collectors are an odd bunch and predicting who they are is like playing the stock market---not for the faint of heart 

[resq302]

I agree.  I got my charger when I was 23.  Granted, the body was already done but it still needed a lot of work to bring it back to the way I wanted it with the rest of the car.  Its not a numbers matching drive train but a correct engine and trans for that era.  I did all that I could on the vehicle myself to not only have self satisfaction that I could say that I did it myself, but also to learn and know my car.  This way, if the car should break down when I was driving it, I would have a better chance of getting it going and back home.  Lets face it, the majority if mechanics today are a plug and play type of person.  Granted, there are the old school guys out there but they are getting fewer and far between to come across.

This all comes back to what a person wants when they purchase a car.  Some people might want that rare, low production, numbers matching car with paperwork galore.  Others might not be able to afford all of that and just want a cool car not caring if it is numbers matching or not.  That is how I started out with my charger.  We were lucky enough to get Mom's car which is a low production car and have it be numbers matching with a build sheet.  Its nice that it is like that but to me it does not mean much.

[ws23rt]

I agree.  I got my charger when I was 23.  Granted, the body was already done but it still needed a lot of work to bring it back to the way I wanted it with the rest of the car.  Its not a numbers matching drive train but a correct engine and trans for that era.  I did all that I could on the vehicle myself to not only have self satisfaction that I could say that I did it myself, but also to learn and know my car.  This way, if the car should break down when I was driving it, I would have a better chance of getting it going and back home.  Lets face it, the majority if mechanics today are a plug and play type of person.  Granted, there are the old school guys out there but they are getting fewer and far between to come across.

This all comes back to what a person wants when they purchase a car.  Some people might want that rare, low production, numbers matching car with paperwork galore.  Others might not be able to afford all of that and just want a cool car not caring if it is numbers matching or not.  That is how I started out with my charger.  We were lucky enough to get Mom's car which is a low production car and have it be numbers matching with a build sheet.  Its nice that it is like that but to me it does not mean much.

This helps get to the point of my post

We are talking about two rather different motivations that people have about these cars.

That difference unfortunately is a divide in our passion. Those that are here to make a living from it have made the enjoyment I expected to have complex.  For one thing I don't enjoy one of the cars I have the way I expected because the value of it makes it a practical financial risk.

I am bummed that the reason I kept and cared for a car that I would have given one of my nuts for in the day is now something that I am reluctant to drive.

So am I complaining?----Yes I am

What I now need is a clone of the car I have to enjoy in order to preserve the practical value of the car I have

[resq302]

Those that are here to make a living from it have made the enjoyment I expected to have complex.  For one thing I don't enjoy one of the cars I have the way I expected because the value of it makes it a practical financial risk.

I am bummed that the reason I kept and cared for a car that I would have given one of my nuts for in the day is now something that I am reluctant to drive.

Very true.  I did not get into this hobby for making a profit.  I did it for the love of cars.  If when I do sell my charger, if I make a profit because I did all the work myself, then thats great.  If not, thats fine too. 

I try to drive our cars as much as possible.  Yes, sometimes bad things happen to good people but that is why there is something called insurance.  Just like when my charger was used for a TV Movie pilot, I was all stressed out till a family member told me, it is insured right?  They had a point.  A car is replaceable.  Worse comes to worse, they totaled out the car, I was covered with not only their policy but a special addendum through Haggerty.  Heck, I thought Dad would have had his el camino for ever as that was one sweet ride.  Well, that went by the wayside last year and we now have the 69 GTX vert.  Rare car and lots of originality but again, in the end, it is just a car.  What fun are they only to sit and collect dust?  I'd rather say that something happened to it when I was out having fun and living life than have the car get totalled in a house fire because I couldn't fire the thing up and back it out in time.

[ECS]

That depends who is talking, Tom.

Sad as it may be, this thread about a Charger can accurately be described by the following:

"Aliases, improprieties, grandiose stories, mystics, skewed agendas, embellished stories, perpetrators, blame, shadows...."

[resq302]

That depends who is talking, Tom.

Sad as it may be, this thread about a Charger can accurately be described by the following:

"Aliases, improprieties, grandiose stories, mystics, skewed agendas, embellished stories, perpetrators, blame, shadows...."

Dave,

Are we talking about Chargers or people who talk about or inspect chargers?   

[ECS]

Are we talking about Chargers or people who talk about or inspect chargers?   

Some cliques in the Hobby use their perceived "power" to manipulate the Industry.  The subject matter covered in this thread is a perfect example. 

[ws23rt]

Are we talking about Chargers or people who talk about or inspect chargers?  

Some cliques in the Hobby use their perceived "power" to manipulate the Industry.  The subject matter covered in this thread is a perfect example.  

You refer to the hobby as the industry---That is what I was talking about.---some see this as an industry and that is just fine.

Many are not involved with these cars for that motivation  When I use the term hobby I'm thinking of those that want to own and drive these cars.

An industry that provides the cars for those that the hobby wants is as needed as the demand is.

The collector side of the market for the real deal is not served well by clones that are made to dupe the buyer.  This is a rather simple concept.

[pettybird]

Is the full inspection report for this car available somewhere?  Love to know what was actually written.

[ECS]

You refer to the hobby as the industry---When I use the term hobby I'm thinking of those that want to own and drive these cars.

Sorry to go off topic for a moment.  The focal point of this thread was discussing a VIN Tag and restoring a "unique" Charger back to its "rare" Factory condition.  That particular aspect has come under scrutiny.  I use the word "Industry" as a broad term to describe the Hobby.  I came into this Hobby as an Enthusiast.  The Business came after the fact.  My goal was to restore these "old cars" back to Assembly Line condition.  It's much more than just selling products to people in this Hobby/Industry.  I enjoy owning and rebuilding these cars on a personal level.  It's not just a Business opportunity for me.  Below is my Challenger that we refurbished from a basket case and finished in 2010.

   

[StoneCold]

^^^^   

[resq302]

Is the full inspection report for this car available somewhere?  Love to know what was actually written.

I'm sure a lot of us would like to see what was written, too.  Lets face it, it doesn't take much for someone to log onto here and only put a few posts out there, such as 5 or so to defend what they wrote up about the car.  If ECS can come out here and explain there side and expose the truth, why can't whoever wrote up the inspection do the same?  I'm curious as to what was said about the rest of the car such as what the numbers were on the trunk gutter and rad support.

[held1823]

interesting reading, no doubt

[Just 6T9 CHGR]

You refer to the hobby as the industry---When I use the term hobby I'm thinking of those that want to own and drive these cars.

Sorry to go off topic for a moment.  The focal point of this thread was discussing a VIN Tag and restoring a "unique" Charger back to its "rare" Factory condition.  That particular aspect has come under scrutiny.  I use the word "Industry" as a broad term to describe the Hobby.  I came into this Hobby as an Enthusiast.  The Business came after the fact.  My goal was to restore these "old cars" back to Assembly Line condition.  It's much more than just selling products to people in this Hobby/Industry.  I enjoy owning and rebuilding these cars on a personal level.  It's not just a Business opportunity for me.  Below is my Challenger that we refurbished from a basket case and finished in 2010.

   

Ive said it before & Ill say it again....man that is a stellar example   Well done! 

[resq302]

I agree, Chris.  Im sure the real thing in person would blow away the photos and the pics are certainly breath taking in itself!

[Rocco Barnard]

Is the full inspection report for this car available somewhere?  Love to know what was actually written.

I'm sure a lot of us would like to see what was written, too.  Lets face it, it doesn't take much for someone to log onto here and only put a few posts out there, such as 5 or so to defend what they wrote up about the car.  If ECS can come out here and explain there side and expose the truth, why can't whoever wrote up the inspection do the same?  I'm curious as to what was said about the rest of the car such as what the numbers were on the trunk gutter and rad support.

ECS should not believe everything that is written on the pages of Mopar Collector's Guide. If Eric or the new owner ever come on board they can speak specifically to the report.

Regarding the aliases, ECS is wrong about that.

[Rocco Barnard]

If anyone should know about aliases it's ECS.

[ECS]

If anyone should know about aliases it's ECS.

You're correct!  Recognizing those who hide behind aliases is similar to knowing when "fake" documentation surfaces.   

[resq302]

Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't he one of the "experts" that looked at the Car in question in this thread and certified it as being "original"?    If I was certifying Cars and putting my stamp on approval on them, I guarantee I would be the "expert" for what I was commissioned and paid to do.  

In the pages of MCG (in regards to the door vin decal) they said it was "original"... How could MCG be 100% sure?  

I'm guessing they took "the word" of the owner who said "for sure" and then they didn't review the inspection report. That could have been how they got screwed? ....Nobody knows if David Wise had a different opinion because they don't show the inpection report.

This is how things can get out of control.    

This is why if you are going to be considered an "expert" in this hobby, you had better know what you are doing. 

[XS29L9Bxxxxxx]

This is why if you are going to be considered an "expert" in this hobby, you had better know what you are doing. 

That really pertains to anything in life, not just cars, true? 

[resq302]

This is why if you are going to be considered an "expert" in this hobby, you had better know what you are doing. 

That really pertains to anything in life, not just cars, true? 

Exactly!  Especially when someone is deemed an "expert" in a trial.  Stuff like inaccuracies or inconsistencies almost immediately make that person lose all credibility and could potentially lose a case for the prosecution or defense, which ever side they were called upon to testify.

[DAY CLONA]

Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't he one of the "experts" that looked at the Car in question in this thread and certified it as being "original"?    If I was certifying Cars and putting my stamp on approval on them, I guarantee I would be the "expert" for what I was commissioned and paid to do.  

In the pages of MCG (in regards to the door vin decal) they said it was "original"... How could MCG be 100% sure?  

I'm guessing they took "the word" of the owner who said "for sure" and then they didn't review the inspection report. That could have been how they got screwed? ....Nobody knows if David Wise had a different opinion because they don't show the inpection report.






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Regardless of the fact that David Wise's report hasn't been posted, it would seem that the report "validated" the vehicle, why else would it have changed hands so quickly, along with some Magazine coverage, and the new owner touting it as the real deal?...would one purchase a vehicle knowing that an "expert" evaluation of the facts presented were questionable?....after this boondoggle revelation of current facts, I don't think anyone will ever see/hear of Wise's evaluation report