Questions about my VIN tag.

[resq302]

So, hypothetically, a piece of paper which essentially was a piece of garbage and people were too lazy to throw away and hid somewhere inside the vehicle is now a valuable collectors item.  Add to that, that not every vehicle had one "hid" inside the vehicle so you may not even have anything to go on.  Whats worse is that even IF you did get one in your car, didn't mean it would be the one for your car.  So, to add to this mess, does an inaccurate build sheet in your car add value to it even though it does not have the VIN number for your car.   Did I confuse anyone yet? 

You may have just confused yourself. 

There nothing hypothetical about it.
Fixed: "A piece of paper, which essentially was a piece of garbage and people were too lazy to throw away and hid somewhere inside the vehicle, is now a valuable collectors item to which the car it belongs to."      

So basically it is a luck of the draw if your car has more value than another car because of a sheet of paper that was considered garbage.   

[ECS]

It should just be said here that this is Michigan law and only pertains to Michigan.  Although it is similar to the Federal law and likely similar to most state laws......

I used the Michigan Code because that State is considered the cornerstone of the Automobile Industry.  You won't find conflicting or contradicting legislation between the States.  NHTSA Law is Federally mandated and does not allow for variations within their 49 CFR guidelines.   

Sec. 511. Altering or removing motor vehicle identification numbers
(a) A person who—
(1) knowingly removes, obliterates, tampers with, or alters an identification number for a motor vehicle or motor vehicle part; or
(2) with intent to further the theft of a motor vehicle, knowingly removes, obliterates, tampers with, or alters a decal or device affixed to a motor vehicle pursuant to the Motor Vehicle Theft Prevention Act,
shall be fined under this title, imprisoned not more than 5 years, or both.
(b)
(1) Subsection (a) of this section does not apply to a removal, obliteration, tampering, or alteration by a person specified in paragraph (2) of this subsection (unless such person knows that the vehicle or part involved is stolen).
(2) The persons referred to in paragraph (1) of this subsection are—
(A) a motor vehicle scrap processor or a motor vehicle demolisher who complies with applicable State law with respect to such vehicle or part;
(B) a person who repairs such vehicle or part, if the removal, obliteration, tampering, or alteration is reasonably necessary for the repair;
(C) a person who restores or replaces an identification number for such vehicle or part in accordance with applicable State law; and
(D) a person who removes, obliterates, tampers with, or alters a decal or device affixed to a motor vehicle pursuant to the Motor Vehicle Theft Prevention Act, if that person is the owner of the motor vehicle, or is authorized to remove, obliterate, tamper with or alter the decal or device by—
(i) the owner or his authorized agent;
(ii) applicable State or local law; or
(iii) regulations promulgated by the Attorney General to implement the Motor Vehicle Theft Prevention Act.
(c) As used in this section, the term—
(1) "identification number" means a number or symbol that is inscribed or affixed for purposes of identification under chapter 301 and part C of subtitle VI of title 49;
(2) "motor vehicle" has the meaning given that term in section 32101 of title 49;
(3) "motor vehicle demolisher" means a person, including any motor vehicle dismantler or motor vehicle recycler, who is engaged in the business of reducing motor vehicles or motor vehicle parts to metallic scrap that is unsuitable for use as either a motor vehicle or a motor vehicle part;
(4) "motor vehicle scrap processor" means a person—
(A) who is engaged in the business of purchasing motor vehicles or motor vehicle parts for reduction to metallic scrap for recycling;
(B) who, from a fixed location, uses machinery to process metallic scrap into prepared grades; and
(C) whose principal product is metallic scrap for recycling;
but such term does not include any activity of any such person relating to the recycling of a motor vehicle or a motor vehicle part as a used motor vehicle or a used motor vehicle part.
(d) For purposes of subsection (a) of this section, the term "tampers with" includes covering a program decal or device affixed to a motor vehicle pursuant to the Motor Vehicle Theft Prevention Act for the purpose of obstructing its visibility.    

[bill440rt]

So, hypothetically, a piece of paper which essentially was a piece of garbage and people were too lazy to throw away and hid somewhere inside the vehicle is now a valuable collectors item.  Add to that, that not every vehicle had one "hid" inside the vehicle so you may not even have anything to go on.  Whats worse is that even IF you did get one in your car, didn't mean it would be the one for your car.  So, to add to this mess, does an inaccurate build sheet in your car add value to it even though it does not have the VIN number for your car.   Did I confuse anyone yet? 

You may have just confused yourself. 

There nothing hypothetical about it.
Fixed: "A piece of paper, which essentially was a piece of garbage and people were too lazy to throw away and hid somewhere inside the vehicle, is now a valuable collectors item to which the car it belongs to."      

So basically it is a luck of the draw if your car has more value than another car because of a sheet of paper that was considered garbage.   

It certainly adds to the value of a vehicle, more so if you have a rare or desirable model. For example, a HemiCuda with it's original broadcast sheet spelling out exactly what the car should be might fetch more than one that doesn't have one.
Seriously, Brian. You, a "restorer", need clarification on this??? 

[TUFCAT]

So basically it is a luck of the draw if your car has more value than another car because of a sheet of paper that was considered garbage.  

Brian, I see your point about the random placement of broadcast sheets in vehicles.  

Here's my view of "luck of the draw"...

If someone was the first owner of the vehicle, and the factory didn't leave a broadcast sheet, its most certainly considered "luck of the draw".

If someone is a second or subsequent owner of an unrestored/unmolested survivor, the missing broadcast sheet is also "luck of the draw".

However, if someone buys a restored car that was sold and marketed as being without a broadcast sheet its not "luck of the draw". The buyer knew the broadcast sheet was missing when he purchased the vehicle.  "Luck of the draw" no longer applies here. 

My unrestored survivor had one broadcast. My brothers Charger had 3. Some people find none at all.  That's "Luck of the draw"  

[charger Downunder]

If i was the owner i would report it to the law and get my money back if i bought it as being the real McCoy.  Working back through the chain of events you should be able to find the person responsible.

[DAY CLONA]

If i was the owner i would report it to the law and get my money back if i bought it as being the real McCoy.  Working back through the chain of events you should be able to find the person responsible.

If the proverbial "can of worms" is opened, and a legal search begins to find the origin of when, who, what etc happened, I'm sure more legal issues might befall those who avoided sales tax, and or title jumps when this vehicle changed hands, I'm sure the last sale was for some serious cash based upon the cars then deemed desirability and uniqueness based on the "expert" evaluation...the vehicle has now made some limelight, so the current owner is faced with a conundrum, "Do I restore the car to it's proposed configuration and be prepared for the onslaught of ridicule/mockery/questioning I might have to endure?", or "Do I seek legal advice as to my recourse in washing my hands of this car and getting my $$$$$$ back?" ....myself, I'd just restore the car as it's proposed V code, AC, cruise, etc and enjoy it, after all, it's just a machine

mike

[ws23rt]

The original post was asking about what looked like a non original vin tag. 16 pages later we are talking about what seems rather simple.

When one has a car to fix and some of the information about the car is missing is it ok to invent the car as we want it to be?  And further is it appropriate to create the identifying documents to make it what we want it to be?

This is not a tough question----The thought process you would go through is about future value. ----For a fake car this is a scam.--for showing a car and perhaps getting awards that a judge decided was worthy is another scam.  If the owner of the car knows of the deception and feels satisfaction that the public has been duped than ka ching he has won.

However the next owner of the car may not be in on the scam and eventually regret owning the car when they find out it is not what  it says it is.

I intruded earlier with what I think faking documents/vin tags/ stickers will do to the hobby.

Clearly to fabricate a document is an attempt to deceive someone-sometime-for some reason.  

To make a clone car is done all the time and moves the hobby along.  But when the documents come into the picture when making a clone than it's a scam--clear--simple.

The future will show this as a time when some tried to make a killing on a popular hobby and caused a mess that many spent much time and money trying to unravel  

[RallyeMike]

Wow, just read this thread for the first time.

It would seem that by now, if this car was a legit factory built V code-AC-cruise build that the current owner would be doing everything possible to secure the car's place in history as well as secure its value. We have heard nothing more about the search for past owners and documentation such as photos or testimony? If the door VIN sticker was truly made just 8 years ago, and then aged and installed, that seals the deal for me that something is fishy.

To answer the question of "I don't know where it goes from here": My guess is that with the pot sufficiently stirred, the car will now get restored, erasing any possible additional clues that might be gained though closer examination and scrutiny, the past owner leads will dry up, and the "1 of none" claims will follow this car from now until eternity.

I would love to be proved wrong!

[ws23rt]

My hope is that with conversations like this we can get back to enjoying these cars and not trying to make a living out of our passion.

I suspect that most of us are in this for the passion and not the money.  It has been agreed many times that we do not profit from our efforts

[resq302]

So, hypothetically, a piece of paper which essentially was a piece of garbage and people were too lazy to throw away and hid somewhere inside the vehicle is now a valuable collectors item.  Add to that, that not every vehicle had one "hid" inside the vehicle so you may not even have anything to go on.  Whats worse is that even IF you did get one in your car, didn't mean it would be the one for your car.  So, to add to this mess, does an inaccurate build sheet in your car add value to it even though it does not have the VIN number for your car.   Did I confuse anyone yet? 

You may have just confused yourself. 

There nothing hypothetical about it.
Fixed: "A piece of paper, which essentially was a piece of garbage and people were too lazy to throw away and hid somewhere inside the vehicle, is now a valuable collectors item to which the car it belongs to."      

So basically it is a luck of the draw if your car has more value than another car because of a sheet of paper that was considered garbage.   

It certainly adds to the value of a vehicle, more so if you have a rare or desirable model. For example, a HemiCuda with it's original broadcast sheet spelling out exactly what the car should be might fetch more than one that doesn't have one.
Seriously, Brian. You, a "restorer", need clarification on this??? 

Bill,

If anything by terms of "restorer" I am more of a "shade tree restorer" since this is not my profession or full time job.  I am fully aware that it might add value to the car IF a person is willing to pay more for that kind of paperwork.  My charger doesn't have one nor do I care for one with the car.  My moms Chally vert has one but it was printed on the 69 E series sheet with the F series codes which did not seem to line up.  I have heard that this is quite common for the early built 70 cars being printed on the E series sheets.  I have been able to break down some of the codes but, honestly, I really don't care what was on the build sheet to what might be on the car now.  Its how my Mom likes it.  I've found that it is one of 99 that was painted white so I guess it is a rare car especially since it is the numbers matching block, trans, rear axle, etc.  But again, we didn't get the car because of those reasons.  They just happened to be like that when we got the car.  So be it.  Personally, I really don't put a monetary value on the build sheets as they were considered garbage to the Chrysler assembly workers.  Today, we make them out way more than what they were supposed to be.  All that the piece of paper did was tell them what to pull and what to install.  I don't need a piece of paper to tell me what goes where on my car.  If I was that worried about restoring it to what was done at the factory, I would have purchased a one owner car or a low mileage car that was not restored so I could do my own investigation as to how it was assembled.  Kind of what we fell into with Dad's GTX.  That in itself is more rewarding and interesting than any number or code found on a piece of paper to me!  I'm not out to retire on any of our cars, just make them to what we chose them to be.  Be it color change like my charger had been done, adding a side stripe to my Mom's challenger since she liked the way it looked, or putting it back to the way the factory did it like we are doing with my Dad's GTX vert.  In the end, it all comes down to what pleases the owner.

[TUFCAT]

Bill,

If anything by terms of "restorer" I am more of a "shade tree restorer" since this is not my profession or full time job.  I am fully aware that it might add value to the car IF a person is willing to pay more for that kind of paperwork.  My charger doesn't have one nor do I care for one with the car.  My moms Chally vert has one but it was printed on the 69 E series sheet with the F series codes which did not seem to line up.  I have heard that this is quite common for the early built 70 cars being printed on the E series sheets.  I have been able to break down some of the codes but, honestly, I really don't care what was on the build sheet to what might be on the car now.  Its how my Mom likes it.  I've found that it is one of 99 that was painted white so I guess it is a rare car especially since it is the numbers matching block, trans, rear axle, etc.  But again, we didn't get the car because of those reasons.  They just happened to be like that when we got the car.  So be it.  Personally, I really don't put a monetary value on the build sheets as they were considered garbage to the Chrysler assembly workers.  Today, we make them out way more than what they were supposed to be.  All that the piece of paper did was tell them what to pull and what to install.  I don't need a piece of paper to tell me what goes where on my car.  If I was that worried about restoring it to what was done at the factory, I would have purchased a one owner car or a low mileage car that was not restored so I could do my own investigation as to how it was assembled.  Kind of what we fell into with Dad's GTX.  That in itself is more rewarding and interesting than any number or code found on a piece of paper to me!  I'm not out to retire on any of our cars, just make them to what we chose them to be.  Be it color change like my charger had been done, adding a side stripe to my Mom's challenger since she liked the way it looked, or putting it back to the way the factory did it like we are doing with my Dad's GTX vert.  In the end, it all comes down to what pleases the owner.

What you have said is true for many owners....however there's a large number of owners and "collectors" who feel the exact opposite. The bottom line is an original broadcast sheet adds value as an additional form of documentation.  You simply can't disregard that.    

[ECS]

I intruded earlier with what I think faking documents/vin tags/ stickers will do to the hobby.  Clearly to fabricate a document is an attempt to deceive someone-sometime-for some reason.

Classifying all of these areas as "fake" is unfair.  I'll use VIN Decals as the example because that is an area we have been involved with for many years.  We make replacement decals for the Restoration and Collision Industries.  The purpose for both Markets is to put the vehicle back into its original condition.

We worked with State Farm on an insurance claim for a guy who wrecked his Corvette.  The original Safety (VIN) label was destroyed in the accident.  When the Customer's Vehicle was returned after the repair he was angry because his Corvette no longer had the VIN Decal, Tire Pressure or Plant Assembly Decal in the door jam.  State Farm had us manufacture his replacement decals because it saved them $3400 in avoiding a diminished value claim.  They would have had to pay the guy the amount that he would lose ($3400) if he sold the vehicle without the labels in place.  The absence of those labels lowered the resale Bluebook value of that Car by $3400!  We were able to replace his decals which allowed his Car to be returned to its Pre-accident condition.  This saved State Farm from having to pay the Corvette Owner an additional $3220 for diminished value.  

If a Repair Center chooses NOT to replace the VIN label (with Tire Pressure Ratings printed on them) after an accident, they are placing themselves in a liability situation.  By not replacing the Safety Information on the Car, the Customer no longer has a quick reference for Tire pressure ratings.  If they use the MAXIMUM pressures listed on the sidewall of the Tires, they will be over-inflating the Tires which could cause a blowout.  Imagine if someone was killed due to blowout because the Insurance Company or the Body Shop was trying to save a few bucks by not replacing them.  That is the reason the Auto Manufacturers put them there in the first place.  For Safety and proper vehicle identification!  

[bill440rt]

Bill,

If anything by terms of "restorer" I am more of a "shade tree restorer" since this is not my profession or full time job.  I am fully aware that it might add value to the car IF a person is willing to pay more for that kind of paperwork.  My charger doesn't have one nor do I care for one with the car.  My moms Chally vert has one but it was printed on the 69 E series sheet with the F series codes which did not seem to line up.  I have heard that this is quite common for the early built 70 cars being printed on the E series sheets.  I have been able to break down some of the codes but, honestly, I really don't care what was on the build sheet to what might be on the car now.  Its how my Mom likes it.  I've found that it is one of 99 that was painted white so I guess it is a rare car especially since it is the numbers matching block, trans, rear axle, etc.  But again, we didn't get the car because of those reasons.  They just happened to be like that when we got the car.  So be it.  Personally, I really don't put a monetary value on the build sheets as they were considered garbage to the Chrysler assembly workers.  Today, we make them out way more than what they were supposed to be.  All that the piece of paper did was tell them what to pull and what to install.  I don't need a piece of paper to tell me what goes where on my car.  If I was that worried about restoring it to what was done at the factory, I would have purchased a one owner car or a low mileage car that was not restored so I could do my own investigation as to how it was assembled.  Kind of what we fell into with Dad's GTX.  That in itself is more rewarding and interesting than any number or code found on a piece of paper to me!  I'm not out to retire on any of our cars, just make them to what we chose them to be.  Be it color change like my charger had been done, adding a side stripe to my Mom's challenger since she liked the way it looked, or putting it back to the way the factory did it like we are doing with my Dad's GTX vert.  In the end, it all comes down to what pleases the owner.

What you have said is true for many owners....however there's a large number of owners and "collectors" who feel the exact opposite. The bottom line is an original broadcast sheet adds value as an additional form of documentation.  You simply can't disregard that.    

x2

One does not have to be in the restoration "profession" to know this. Because they were garbage to an assembly worker back in the day may be a contributing factor why they are so desirable today. If they weren't so desirable and added nothing to the value of the vehicle, then there wouldn't be such a demand in the aftermarket for them. Which clearly, there is. One who is so hell bent on "concours, factory correctness" should understand this.
Of course, perceived added value is dependent on the person & type of vehicle.

[resq302]

I agree.  We found a build sheet in my Dad's old 92 Chrysler Lebarron Convert.  Does that mean that he should have got more for the car when he sold it?  Probably not.  Now maybe 20 years from now, its hard to say.  Demand for that car might not be what it is for our chargers.

Also, "concours / factory correctness" as you say does not require having a build sheet.  A simple documentation of an unmolested car like our GTX should surfice to prove what the factory did vs. having a sheet of paper to decode and go off of.  Im sure that there are inaccuracies on those pieces of paper that did not get installed on certain cars due to pieces being out of stock or it being built for a "friend".

Anyway, hopefully we can now get this back on topic about the 6 pack a/c charger.

[Rocco Barnard]

The concept of build sheets being nothing more than factory garbage is disappointing.  If garbage why then are people so eager to have them reproduced for their automobiles?  The correlation between the reproduction industry making an item and perceived value go hand-in-hand.  I can think of many reproduction items that don't exist in this hobby today because there's no value in manufacturing these items.  The AMC hobby has been waiting for many needed items that will most likely never see the light of day.

If there is no value to an original factory build sheet, which is to be considered factory garbage, ECS should be able to provide a list of all reproduction build sheets that have been made past and present?  13 Charger Vin numbers have already been posted with new door vin decals I can't see why the build sheet list would be much different.  The value of the build sheet has been obvious to collectors since day one that includes Ford, Gm, and AMC.  

[ECS]

ECS should be able to provide a list of all reproduction build sheets that have been made past and present?

If you recall, this is what Mike Mancini was asking to be disclosed after exposing his and D'agotinos shenanigans.  What Mike may not have known is that a some of his other close friends would have shown up on that list.  I'll guarantee that unknown to Mike, those friends wanted him to "drop it" when he requested that such a list be made public.

[TUFCAT]

If you recall, this is what Mike Mancini was asking to be disclosed after exposing his and D'agotinos shenanigans.  What Mike may not have known is that a some of his other close friends would have shown up on that list.  I'll guarantee that unknown to Mike, those friends wanted him to "drop it" when he requested that such a list be made public.

 

[FJ5WING]

after reading this novel I find it curious the OP has disappeared.

I doubt the cars pedigree and the OP being a self proclaimed Corvette guy just casts a larger cloud over the car. Those guys invented and perfected the art of faking a cars originality.    REALLY, A blurry pic with a digital camera? Why not retake it? 

[resq302]

FJ5,

Not trying to defend the OP with a blurred pic but I have taken my share of things only to look at them quickly on the small screen and seems ok only to realize once I enlarge them to a computer screen to see that they are fuzzy and not the best quality.

[68X426]

  fuzzy and not the best quality.

Just like everything else about this guy's Charger. 

[resq302]

  fuzzy and not the best quality.

Just like everything else about this guy's Charger. 

[held1823]

if i wasn't dirt poor, 409053 would be the fourteenth vin to show up on that list for repro door stickers. i'm not too worried about being exposed, what with knowing the car's history back to day one.

[ECS]

It certainly adds to the value of a vehicle......

I think Brian was talking about actual value versus intrinsic value.  A Broadcast Sheet allows a person to feel better about what they are purchasing.  By adding "credibility" to a Car, most people are comfortable paying a premium for it.  I have original Broadcast Sheets for my Cars.  If I threw them away, my Cars would still represent and be worth what they are.  It would certainly limit potential buyers who would not purchase a vehicle without that type of "documentation" however.  Having a Broadcast Sheet does add intrinsic value to the resale of a vehicle.

Speaking of documentation, no one has mentioned the Monroney Sticker in the mix of things.  A Monroney Sticker is truly a "document" that is Federally mandated and regulated.  Broadcast Sheets were used to assist with the assembly of the vehicle but NEVER had any legal qualities.  The Window Sticker conveyed MUCH more (vehicle) information than a Broadcast Sheet.  Unlike the Broadcast Sheet,  it provided the option codes that were found on the Fender Tag, listed the costs for the options, told who the selling Dealer was, provided an actual build date for the car, listed the Dealer code, the vehicle routing code, destination charge, etc........

[6bblgt]

provided an actual build date for the car,

how so?

[69CoronetRT]

...  it provided some of the option codes that were found on the Fender Tag, ........