UCA - Hotchkis vs. FirmFeel

[cjw916]

Last summer's project was to upgrade the suspension, brakes and wheels on my '68 Charger 440 4-speed.

I installed all new stock (Moog, I think) front suspension; UCA ball joints, bushings, standard tie rod ends, lower control arms, everything new except the center link & the UCAs & LCAs & the spindles.

I upgraded my drums to 12" Wilwood 6-pot disc brakes in the front, 11" Wilwood 4-pot disc brakes in the rear.

Wheels are American Racing Torque Thrust, 17" x 8" 235/50 front, 17" x 9" 255/50 rear.

I also installed Hotchkis front and rear sway bars, and Hotchkis tuned 1.5 Street Performance Series shocks on all four corners.

Final addition was a new driveshaft with Spicer yokes and an axle snubber.

When we did the allignment, we were able to get 2.3L & 1.8R positive Caster. We set the Camber at -0.8, both sides.

The car drives great. There was some initial 'play' in the steering wheel, which was illuminated by the 'tightness' of the rest of the front suspension, compared to the 'floaty-boat' that she was! I got lucky, I loosened the jam nut, turned the screw in a bit, tightened the jam nut, and most of the play was gone. I got a Dorman steering link rebuild kit, and that took care of 99.9% of the steering play. YEA! Something that didn't cost me $1,000 to fix!

While under the car recently to grease the Zerk fittings, I noticed the UCA rubber boots are completely creased & cracked & shot. Dick at FirmFeel suggested maybe they sat on the shelf for years and I just got unlucky and got a set destined to dry-rot.

So, my next project is new upper control arms.

I initially scoffed at the ridiculous price ($857!) of the Hotchkis UCAs, figuring my B-body is NO A-body, and will never handle as such! But, the quality of the other Hotchkis products I have installed cannot be argued with! They are beautiful and functional!

Then I came across the FirmFeel UCAs, at $350 a pair, they are much more reasonable. Dick at FirmFeel said they build in some extra Caster so that 4.0 positive is easily attainable.

My car self-centers pretty well as it sits, at only around 2 degrees positive Caster.

Does anyone have any experience with either set-up? What are your thoughts? Pros? Cons?

I would appreciate any input you guys might have.

Future upgrades probably consist of a FirmFeel 11/16" tie rod kit, FirmFeel Steering Sector Support kit, and Hotchkis subframe connectors.

Thanks again.

Christopher

[cjw916]

More pics.

[WHITE AND RED 69]

No matter what you choose you will see some good benefits in steering response and control. Hotchkis and Firmfeel both make damn fine products. it just comes down to what suits the car, your driving expectations, and what you want to spend. It's a good time for aftermarket parts, lots of options from great companies that are putting out quality parts for Mopars. Check out QA1 arms as well. They are like Firm Feel arms with some minor tweaks. PST also sells good control arms but they look identical to Firm Feels.

I run the Hotchkis arms on my 69 and do not have any complaints. The thing I like about them is that they changed the mounting point with their relocation bracket to correct the caster. No other aftermarket arms do this other than full blown coil over setups. The Hotchkis arms also have more adjustability with the rod ends than the other aftermarket arms that are all one piece. The one negative part for some people is the use of heim joints and how long they will last. I have had mine for over 3 years with a few thousand miles on them and they are still like new. Will they fail one day, most likely. But bushings can fail at any time as well. Just like everything with cars it comes down to maintenance. If you take care of them they will last.

They are expensive (summit sells them for $700 with free shipping and if you can wait Hotchkis usually does a Thanksgiving and Christmas 25% off sale) but just look at the quality of them and it makes sense.

I really like my Hotchkis arms and would buy them again but I'd have no problem using Firm Feel or QA1 products if I didn't have Hotchkis arms. 

[cjw916]

Since you have the Hotchkis arms, can you explain to me how the 'box bracket' end secures in the car? Do you pivot the eccentric to lock the bracket down&in to wedge it in there? It seems from looking at them, that you'd end up w/ 3 adjusting points if that end isn't wedged into the box corner?

Is that how that end secures? Or is it welded in to lock it down?

Thanks for the informational response!

[WHITE AND RED 69]

No welding required. It just gets bolted down using the stock camber bolt. The bracket is shaped to fit perfectly in the mounting position, there is a little "pocket" that it fits into and it's very snug. Once bolted down there is no chance it would move even under extreme circumstances.

If you look on page 3 of the instructions you can see the "pocket" it fits into. I did have to grind down the corner for the bolt on mine like the instructions suggest.

http://www.hotchkis.net/_uploaded_files/1110instructions5212file.pdf

[cjw916]

That's what I was thinking, that it 'wedged' into the corner with the bolt to secure it there!

What kind of 'maintenance' do Heim joints require? Light cleaning & spray lubrication to keep them brandy brand new for longer?

Thanks!

[WHITE AND RED 69]

Just basic cleaning. I usually spray it with wd-40 and wipe it off to clean it, then spray on dry graphite lube so it does not attract dirt like oils would.

If you go with the hotchkis arms you can call them up and request some dust covers to help with keeping the dirt out. They used to give them out to anyone who requested them. Hopefully they still do.

[b5blue]

  I have these: http://www.ebay.com/itm/63-72-MOPAR-B-BODY-70-74-E-BODY-CHARGER-SATELLITE-GTX-RR-NEW-UPPER-CONTROL-ARMS-/380740527572?pt=Vintage_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item58a5e765d4&vxp=mtr
  I'll be installing them when changing to 11 3/4 Factory style rotors for my disk brake swap. I plan on installing new offset UCA bushings to correct my alignment.
They are spot on in shape for the originals and come ready to install. Moog was lifetime warranty for me @ Advance Auto so replacements may be free for you. That would let you rebuild your original UCA's for backup.
  As you can tell I'm one cheap SOB but you sound like the car is so close already I was compelled to give a much less option.   

[bull]

I can't speak to the difference between the two performance-wise but I can tell you Firm Feel is unmatched in customer service.

[bill440rt]

Looks like you have a nice setup. 
With the suspension/steering upgrades I did, I still have the stock UCA's as well. Upgrading to a set of aftermarket UCA's may be in store for the future. Good reading here.
The Hotchkis bars are definitely something I would consider as well. They look much beefier than the other designs.

Like W&R stated, all of the Hotchkis stuff I've purchased in the past has been awesome quality. I've had ZERO problems in the customer service dept also.

How do the Hotchkis shocks perform? I was looking at those or the Billsteins. The KYB's I have are "OK", but I hear those other two are much better.

[71charger_fan]

Hotchkis are only $857 if you buy them from Hotchkis. Amazon and Summit have them for about $700. Still expensive, but a lot cheaper than buying direct.

[six-tee-nine]

Hotchkis are only $857 if you buy them from Hotchkis. Amazon and Summit have them for about $700. Still expensive, but a lost cheaper than buying direct.

But still twice the price of a pair of firm feels, wich are already a giant leap forard compared to the stock ones.

I think it comes down to what you personally want. I agree on upgrading the suspension, but IMO the firmfeel parts will do the job just fine and save you $350.....

[1974dodgecharger]

Hotchkis are only $857 if you buy them from Hotchkis. Amazon and Summit have them for about $700. Still expensive, but a lost cheaper than buying direct.

But still twice the price of a pair of firm feels, wich are already a giant leap forard compared to the stock ones.

I think it comes down to what you personally want. I agree on upgrading the suspension, but IMO the firmfeel parts will do the job just fine and save you $350.....

WOW, here I was saving my pennies for the hotchkis ones, but if firm feel is the same performance as hotchkis then I would get FF though damn hotchkis ones do sure look pretty and BEEFY

[b5blue]

Cheapest I've seen: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Hotchkis-1110-Suspension-Control-Arm-Front-Upper-/380754538682?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&fits=Year%3A1970

[tan top]

as awesome as , all these latest suspension set ups are for our cars !! & really do make differences !  IMO would not use anything with Heim/ rose joints on anything except a car that's only going to be  in good weather , & or regularly been checked maintance  or worked on  ie  1/4 mile racer or  road course type track stuff , I would go for the firm feel set up   

[cjw916]

Bull, I agree, FF customer service seems pretty darn good. Dick from their technical support line was a super nice guy, willing to answer any questions I had, and was in no hurry to 'get off the phone'!

Bill440RT, I love the Hotchkis 1.5 shocks! I had some 'good' KYB gas shocks, and they are leaps & bounds better! They cost a pretty penny, but the quality is very evident (they're made by Fox) & they do perform well. I will say, the rears are a b*t$h to install! I literally had to grease & rubber hammer the bottom onto the shaft, then used a ratchet strap to compress the gas, so I could get the top bolt in, then I just cut the strap off & tossed it. I have some arthritis & just could not muster the strength to compress, hold, and get the bolt in. You cannot put the top bolt in, then compress & get the bottom on the stud, the slight angle and the very tight bushings on the shocks make it impossible. If you can do it that way, you are SuperMan, compared to me!

Also, Bill440RT, I had Bilstein shocks on all 4 corners of my '07 Jeep SRT-8. They were great in the summer, but, once the weather dipped below 50 degrees, the ride was teeth-chipping spine-jarringly STIFF! It was terrible! I drove the car in all weather, I wouldn't let my wife drive it in freezing temps or snow, because you have GOT to be A MAN (able to continuously counter-steer and recover from the rear passing up the front) in order to stay on the road! The WIDE rubber made driving in snow hella-fun, but dangerous for a woman, I would say. It's not sexist, but, I have never met a wife that could drive sideways the way we men can, they just didn't 'practice' this stuff in their teens like we did! So, anyhow, that STIFF experience led me to try the Hotchkis, instead of the Bilsteins. Now, the Jeep SRT-8 is a heavy vehicle, so maybe the dampening was a bit more severe, and their shocks designed for our comparatively lighter cars would be better, but that's why I avoided them. :-)   

I'm not THAT worried about care of Heim joints, as my car sees plenty of miles, but she is very well looked after! :-) A wipe-down & squirt of Teflon or similar non-petroleum based lube every so often does not scare me. And W&R69 said you can get dust covers to protect the joints, probably not necessary for most of us tinkerers.

It really comes down to price vs. needs, for me. The Hotchkis are beautiful, but, the UCA really does not 'see' the stresses that the LCA sees on our cars! I'm sure the FF UCAs are plenty beefy for the forces the UCA sees. Right now I'm leaning toward getting the FF UCAs & sending them my LCAs to have them reinforced! Look at how BEEFY the LCAs look after they reinforce them! The LCA is definitely the weakest link in the design of our front suspensions! It sees Normal force, bending moment, torque, leverage, and the whole mess is mounted (cantilevered) by one bolt! The strut rod helps with managing the stresses, but, I think the money is better spent improving the LCA & possibly sending them my K-member for reinforcement, too!

Thanks for your guys input!

[will]

I was able to have them send me the gusset set for the k frame, along with uca's and strut rods. I paid like 525 or something along those lines, and had the work done locally. Powder coated after all the welding was done, all the way around the k frame.

[WHITE AND RED 69]

Definitely add the lower control arm stiffening plates. I did that to mine and they are solid. And they look cool too.   

[six-tee-nine]

Right now I'm leaning toward getting the FF UCAs & sending them my LCAs to have them reinforced! Look at how BEEFY the LCAs look after they reinforce them!

If you can handle a welder, just buy the plates and weld them on yourself and save extra cash again... I think Mancini sells them

EDIT

found them
http://chucker54.stores.yahoo.net/coarmstpl.html

[cjw916]

Great link! Thanks!

I have a media blast cabinet, and I can weld (although I have 5 friends that have MAD welding skills compared to me, AND I have BEER!) so now I'm definitely leaning toward getting the greasable pivot pins, the Hotchkis UCAs, struts rods & steering rods.

I priced it all out on Summit & eBay and the difference between FF & Hotchkis was ~$540, for everything. The UCAs are the real kicker, the other items are only a bit more for the Hotchkis pieces.

I still hafta sleep on it a few more nights, but it's all coming clearer day by day. :-)

Tomorrow I'll prolly want all FirmFeel. Lol.

Thanks for your guys input!

[v21hemicharger]

Hotchkis usually has a 25% off sale coming up.  Not sure how it compares to Summit regular prices.  I have those items and did all those things above and car is as good as new SS Camaro on track.  Maybe call and ask when sale starts if you  can wait.  Mike

[1974dodgecharger]

Hotchkis usually has a 25% off sale coming up.  Not sure how it compares to Summit regular prices.  I have those items and did all those things above and car is as good as new SS Camaro on track.  Maybe call and ask when sale starts if you  can wait.  Mike

thats what im waiting on for the front sway bars.....they had the 25% last year so im just waiting and waiting..............

[Troy]

Hotchkis usually has a 25% off sale coming up.  Not sure how it compares to Summit regular prices.  I have those items and did all those things above and car is as good as new SS Camaro on track.  Maybe call and ask when sale starts if you  can wait.  Mike

It's usually right around Christmas/New Years and the prices beat every one of their resellers. Not to mention, I live in Ohio so I get socked with shipping AND sales tax when I buy from Summit or Jegs so it's even worse.

Troy

[cjw916]

Yeah, it's Winter Project time for me, waiting to see how happy that sale is & I may just pull the trigger on a stack-o-parts that I've been eyeing!

For now, FirmFeel's got me sold on a new Stage 2 chuck, Sector Support bearing kit, and straightening/reinforcing my LCAs with them. Maybe send them my K member for welding, too? See what happens once I get the front end up in the air as she gets colder up here. :-)

[v21hemicharger]

I have the FF Stage 3 and they have a re-enforcing kit for the K that I added along with fast ratio arms.  I put a stage 2 on a Cuda and like the 3 better, but the cuda was stock suspension.  I like FF stuff as I have their whole kit on my 74 Charger( not finished).  Mike