Stability/Handeling Increase

[MxRacer855]

Hey guys,
I apologize if I'm starting a new thread that's redundant... I'm just trying to learn some new things and get the hang of this forum stuff.
I have a '68 Charger (non R/T) that I recently purchased and am rebuilding. The car is turn-key right now. This winter I'm going to rebuild the 440, trans and put a Dana 60 rear end in it. The only problem is the car right now feels so soft and unstable at higher speeds that I'm almost worried to build a quicker motor (thinking ahead,  ). All joking aside, it really begins to sway and float around 60-70 mph. I know it's not a modern race car by any means, but what can I do to stiffen it up and increase the stability of it so it's a much more comfortable ride at higher speeds and not so hesitant?

Any specific kits/parts you recommend?
Thanks!

-Jeff

[JB400]

http://www.firmfeel.com/powerst_b.html

One of these would be a nice start.

[Mike DC]

The steering wheel "floats" because of two big reasons:

1.  The PS gearbox is sloppy and/or out of adjustment from age, and it was built over-assisted in the first place. 

Get a rebuilt one from Firm Feel or someone like them.  A stock replacement box is a bit tighter.  But they also offer 3 degrees of power assist, the factory setup and two notches less.  Pick the middle one if you want it more like a modern car.  The farthest down notch gets pretty hard to turn when parking the car at low speed.



2.  The front suspension geometry/alignment does not have enough caster.  This is why the front wheels lack the natural tendency to straighten themselves out when you let go of the steering wheel at speed.   

There are a couple of fixes for this.  The stock alignment settings allows some adjustment for this, although it's usually not much especially when the car's body angle is sitting raked down in front/up in back.  There are also offset bushings you can use in the LCAs to gain a bit more adjustment than stock.

The bigger fix is replacing the LCAs with aftermarket ones like Firm Feel's.  This adds the caster and also a bit more negative camber.  Best fix, most money.   

[MaximRecoil]

The bigger fix is replacing the LCAs with aftermarket ones like Firm Feel's.  This adds the caster and also a bit more negative camber.  Best fix, most money.   

Do you mean upper control arms? I don't think lower control arms have anything to do with caster (or camber), and as far as I know Firm Feel doesn't make aftermarket LCAs (they do offer a service of reinforcing your factory ones by welding plates to the bottom).

[JB400]

You can adjust caster/camber with either one or both.  The uppers are the most common replaced items, but with a little more work, you can get the benefits of the lca's adjustments as well.

[elacruze]

I installed frame connectors and Firm Feel's heavy torsion bars, Front and Rear sway bars, heavy steering box, heavy duty tie rods, tubular upper control arms and Bilstein shocks. I couldn't be happier although I could give up one size on the torsion bars and wouldn't miss it. Money well spent. I'd rather have these pieces than the Dana, in fact I took my Dana out and installed an 8-3/4. It feels better back there too, being something like 150 lbs lighter.

[1974dodgecharger]

I installed frame connectors and Firm Feel's heavy torsion bars, Front and Rear sway bars, heavy steering box, heavy duty tie rods, tubular upper control arms and Bilstein shocks. I couldn't be happier although I could give up one size on the torsion bars and wouldn't miss it. Money well spent. I'd rather have these pieces than the Dana, in fact I took my Dana out and installed an 8-3/4. It feels better back there too, being something like 150 lbs lighter.

man though a dana 60 come on man....if its on there why take it out?

[Mike DC]

Do you mean upper control arms? I don't think lower control arms have anything to do with caster (or camber), and as far as I know Firm Feel doesn't make aftermarket LCAs (they do offer a service of reinforcing your factory ones by welding plates to the bottom).

Yeah I meant the upper arms, not the lowers.  Oops.   



The lower arms do half the job of locating the spindle, so they do control the caster & camber too.  But these cars (like most cars) were designed to be adjusted by moving the upper arms and leaving the lowers alone.  Its easier to do things that way.  

Moving the lower arms around to change the alignment would also be asking for bump-steer problems.  The steering gearbox & linkage is located to match the movement path of the lower arms, not the uppers.


There is one exception to this rule about leaving the LCAs alone for alignment purposes - I have heard of people swapping in the slightly longer A-body LCA onto B/E body cars for a negative camber increase.  (Yeah I know it's weird, the factory gave the compact A-bodies a longer LCA than the midsize B/Es.)

   

[elacruze]

I installed frame connectors and Firm Feel's heavy torsion bars, Front and Rear sway bars, heavy steering box, heavy duty tie rods, tubular upper control arms and Bilstein shocks. I couldn't be happier although I could give up one size on the torsion bars and wouldn't miss it. Money well spent. I'd rather have these pieces than the Dana, in fact I took my Dana out and installed an 8-3/4. It feels better back there too, being something like 150 lbs lighter.

man though a dana 60 come on man....if its on there why take it out?

It's on the shelf with 4.10 gears. I wanted 3.55 without taking apart the Dana.

[Mike DC]

 
In fact a Dana 60 is only about 50 lbs heavier than an (iron) 8.75" rear.  It just feels like a lot more because unsprung weight has such a strong effect on the ride. 
 

[Big Sugar]

These cars were always a little floaty in the front end above 70.  I cant imagine what they were like with bias ply tires
Back in the day.
But yes the suggestions mentioned already are a good start install a set of subframe connectors  thats a great help in getting the foundation firmed up then your into making sure your alignment and susension ball jointis are in good order followed by  good performance shocks and then a set of fron and rear sway bars.....start with a plan and keep it real no dreaming yet ! Firm Feel  is a great start for good info as well as a great source of parts all top notch and good customer service to help you along the way.
Unless your going to build a drag race car.  The Dana upgrade wont yield you any better performance , stick with your 8 3/4  and spend your money on suspension items.
Do some homework there is lots of stuff for you too read on chassis stiffening ,suspension,brakes......


Ron

[Homerr]

What's your end goal for this car and what is your budget?  FF has a great reputation and does whole kits front to back. 

If you want to keep some bias toward comfort instead of firmness I wouldn't necessarily go for their heaviest sway bar, torsion bars, etc.  It'll still be much better than what you have.

http://www.firmfeel.com/b.htm

[MxRacer855]

What's your end goal for this car and what is your budget?  FF has a great reputation and does whole kits front to back. 

If you want to keep some bias toward comfort instead of firmness I wouldn't necessarily go for their heaviest sway bar, torsion bars, etc.  It'll still be much better than what you have.

http://www.firmfeel.com/b.htm

To be honest, i just want a rigid car that handles well. For example, right now if i take a corner on the quicker side or do a donut... it literally feels like the tires will start rubbing the top of the wheel wells. It's just very soft. I'm not to concerned about comfort as much as I am just wanting a car that feels very solid and strong. I would like to replace everything front to back. Price isn't that much of an issue... when I'm able to afford it, I will get what I need to in order to achieve the feel I'm looking for.

I saw that Hotckiss makes a kit that the gentleman in the R&D dept. told me would offer superior handling in addition with some new shocks and a few other small things. Any thoughts on this?
http://www.hotchkis.net/6669_mopar_bbody_tvs_system.html

Thanks

-Jeff

[Big Sugar]

Jeff. 

Hotchkis is a great choice for spirited driving setup but just remember to start with your foundation and build out from there,   Im running hotchkis stuff now and with all the chassis stiffening ive done my 66 Charger is a very nice cruiser.
Very predictable very tight but not rattley or noisey.    I have yet to bump up my torsion bars from 9.7 to a 1.2  and i still need the upper control arms but to be quite honest im very happy with the ride.
I did go heavy on the chassis stiffening as well as the K and lower control arms so im thinking that is also  contributing to the ride quality. My suspension is presently better than my seats and restraint system which includes me keeping my right arm on and gripping the passenger seat to hold me in place.....LOL.

Was planning more in the way of suspension and upgrading tires to. Modern 17" rim with stick rubber but that is on hold as my plans are to make it to the 2014 Hot Rod Power Tour.....so. Its creature comforts im shooting for now.

"Get your motor running "
Ron

[MxRacer855]

Thanks for the great reply Ron. I can only hope to achieve the handling you've created on your '66 Charger for my '68. I'm really new to cars... and I guess I'm confused with where to start on the handling. I agree with your statement though. Everything I always do is from the basis and work my way out from there. What is your recommendation for what I should do first before I get to things like that Hotchkiss suspension package?

Thanks
-Jeff

[WHITE AND RED 69]

I run the Hotchkis setup on my 69 and am extremely happy with it. Along with a firm feel stage 3 steering box I have no wandering feeling at 70-90 mph and the steering feel is rock solid.  

Best place to start is to stiffen the chassis, new steering box, a quality set of shocks(fox/hotchkis, bilstein, QA1, or ridetech), sway bar, replace any old bushings, and get the proper alignment specs on the front end. If it is still not up to what you were hoping for then go with the upper control arms, strut rods, and steering rods.

If you decide to go with upper control arms I'd highly recommend the Hotchkis arms. They are more expensive but I feel they are a superior product. Not trying to bash the other companies but I like that Hotchkis changed the pivot location to minimize bump steer along with adding more negative camber for more tire contact to the ground. All other aftermarket control arms still use the factory pivot angle which is very steep.   

[MaximRecoil]

If you decide to go with upper control arms I'd highly recommend the Hotchkis arms.   

I believe that Hotchkis upper control arms use heim joints rather than factory-style bushings. Anyone considering them should first be aware of the pros and cons of heim joints vs. bushings.

[Big Sugar]

Well jeff what condition is  your charger in now ?. Was it a rusty car at some point ? Were the floor pans replaced ?
You mentioned it has a 318 ? When do you plan to swap in a big block ?

It can be easy to dream well beyond what you actually need to enjoy the car as a good driver. Then decide if your planning a street cruise build  with mild 350-400 hp or more of a protouring build with great handeling and 400 ++ hp or the street strip look with 450++++hp .    I always tell people who ask to get your plan down firm and stick with reality and focus on a budget ...easier said than done but its very easy to get pulled in a stupid direction because you saw something shiny  !   Post a few pictures of your car and put some serious thoughts on your expectations. And your budget....
Then begin your plan.

Ron