to re-body or not to re-body

[694spdRT]

I wonder what will happen with these new '69 Camaro bodies that are being reproduced. I am sure plenty of guys will be swapping Vin #'s on those. I have not heard much in the press about title issues with these tubs.

[253862656971]

Its a simple issue of right and wrong. Rebodying a car is wrong. Its ALL about the money/ greed/ perception of having a rare/valuable car. All the other stuff is just lame justification. It is a felony in all 50 states and it should be. Hemi cars get rebodied, 318 cars do not. Why? Money, Money, Money.

So Twilt, you're saying that if I swap the VIN's from one 318 car to another 318 car it's not a rebody? What if neither the VIN, the body, the engine or the trans match.?

No, thats not what i am saying at all. swapping vins on two 318 cars would be considered a rebody, but it doesnt happen because there is no financial motivation. So what if the numbers dont match. that in itself doesnt prove anything. If all  the body numbers were the same, but didnt match the VIN, that would be an obvious red flag that a poorly executed rebody may have occured. a better one (if there is such thing) would restamp the body numbers.  the engine/ trans numbers have nothing to do with a rebody.

Now I wouldn't say that...

My 71 is probably a rebody depending on how you look at it (I think it's a rebody).  I pulled it out of a junkyard and started fixing it.  Problem was I didn't have a title.  I did however have a title to my parts car.  Before it was all said and done my 71 had 3 different vins.  1 that was original to the car, 1 that was part of the parts car, and 1 that was the state issued vin after I got done fixing it.  My title also says REBUILT. 

Oh yeah it's a 318 auto on the column Charger.  It made for good practice before I tackled something more desireable.  It's also a good base for a hot rod being that it's so chopped up and put together all value for it being original is gone.  As soon as I have the cash it's gonna have a 500.  I might put a roll cage and narrow the rear someday too.    Now I went and got all excited again. 

[Paul G]

No one knows what goes on in the privacy of someones garage do they. Re-body or restore? To me they are one in the same. Neither are original. What intrigues me is how anal people are getting about it. Replacing everything but the original rivits in the vin tag is legal, but moving the vin tag to better sheet metal is not? Come on here, make some sense out of this. We already have salvage titles, maybe we need restored titles now as well.

[terrible one]

TO, Ghoul said that there is no chance of him getting the R/T car. This is all theoretical and for the purpose of discussion...

Ooops!

Guess I should pay more attention...

[hemihead]

Paul G, for example, how would you feel to find out your 1of 715 U code 73 Charger was really a 1 of a million 318 car that was rebodied?Wouldn't feel too good would it? Nothing personal just an example.

[twilt]

Now I wouldn't say that...

My 71 is probably a rebody depending on how you look at it (I think it's a rebody).  I pulled it out of a junkyard and started fixing it.  Problem was I didn't have a title.  I did however have a title to my parts car.  Before it was all said and done my 71 had 3 different vins.  1 that was original to the car, 1 that was part of the parts car, and 1 that was the state issued vin after I got done fixing it.  My title also says REBUILT. 

Oh yeah it's a 318 auto on the column Charger.  It made for good practice before I tackled something more desireable.  It's also a good base for a hot rod being that it's so chopped up and put together all value for it being original is gone.  As soon as I have the cash it's gonna have a 500.  I might put a roll cage and narrow the rear someday too.    Now I went and got all excited again. 

Nothing wrong with that. I have no issue with rebuilt cars with appropriately issued new VIN numbers. Thats the way things are supposed to be done.

[Old Moparz]

I think the term "rebody" was coined by someone who illegaly removed VIN tags & placed them onto another vehicle. They wanted to soften the harsh sounding expression of truth that would make them a criminal. So, in my own opinion, there is no such thing as a rebody. You either repair a car that is in need of repair with new or used parts, or you swap tags & do something illegal. Period.

If a car is so far gone that it needs another car, so do you.

[Paul G]

Paul G, for example, how would you feel to find out your 1of 715 U code 73 Charger was really a 1 of a million 318 car that was rebodied?Wouldn't feel too good would it? Nothing personal just an example.

How do I know that it's not a re-body? How would anyone know? My point is this, if a car is torn completely down to the bare metal and built back up again with parts that did not roll off the assembly line with it, it is no longer original. What does it matter if the vin tag is still riveted to the same dash it was riveted to at the factory, or if it was removed for cleaning, repainted and reinstalled back on the same dash, or a different dash? Ya, ya ,ya the law states..... All I am saying is that we put too much emphasys on what is original and what isnt. Rebody, restore, rebuild, after this happens the car is no longer original in my mind. Maybe we should have a set percentage of replaced material on a car to still be called original. Then try to enforce that.

     

[Paul G]

Foe example:
Lets say back in 1976 Cletus T-bones a tree with his 71 Hemi Charger. The body is totalled but the drive train is salvageable. He has his buddy Elroy tow it to the barn. Him and Elroy find a 318 donor car. They swap in the Hemi drive train and replace the interior. Lastly they swap over the vin, and the rest of the identifying numbers to the donor car. Repaint the car and Cletus has his Hemi Charger numbers matching rare car back again. Illegal? You bet. Has it happened? I would bet a paycheck it has. Does anyone besides Cletus and Elroy know about it? Nope. 10 years later the car is sold as an original numbers matching car. Is it any different than a similar car that sat in a field and rusted away, then was restored with all new parts that can be bought today and sheet metal from a 318 donor car that can also be bought today. The first scenario is considered illegal, the second is not. What is the physical difference between the two? How would anyone know that the first one is a re-body if say Cletus and Elroy have both passed on to the big junk yard in the sky?

[twilt]

Cletus and Elroy aint smart enuff to get the Torque boxes right and the stamps they bought down at the ACE hardware dont look right either

The difference to me in your scenarios is that in one case a car was saved, in the other a VIN was saved. Saving cars is good  , Saving VINS is all about laziness,fraud, and greed 

[AirborneSilva]

Foe example:
Lets say back in 1976 Cletus T-bones a tree with his 71 Hemi Charger. The body is totalled but the drive train is salvageable. He has his buddy Elroy tow it to the barn. Him and Elroy find a 318 donor car. They swap in the Hemi drive train and replace the interior. Lastly they swap over the vin, and the rest of the identifying numbers to the donor car. Repaint the car and Cletus has his Hemi Charger numbers matching rare car back again. Illegal? You bet. Has it happened? I would bet a paycheck it has. Does anyone besides Cletus and Elroy know about it? Nope. 10 years later the car is sold as an original numbers matching car. Is it any different than a similar car that sat in a field and rusted away, then was restored with all new parts that can be bought today and sheet metal from a 318 donor car that can also be bought today. The first scenario is considered illegal, the second is not. What is the physical difference between the two? How would anyone know that the first one is a re-body if say Cletus and Elroy have both passed on to the big junk yard in the sky?

I'm none too sure I agree with the rebody thing (I lean more against it for several reasons, one being morality), but I sure like your story about Cletus and Elroy 

[The Ghoul]

I think the fact that this debate has been going so long, suprisingly some what civily, shows that the laws need to be reviewed.
I think that there are always going to be exceptions to what ever rule and whats good for one person dosent fly with others.
I personaly feel that the history in a car should not be tossed out just because of componet the can be fixed (no matter what degree). I would not use a blanket statment such as lazyness and greed because as stated before there always going to be exceptions. ....
Guess we all learned something.
check the vins of donner sheet metal before you install it on your car and voide your vin to make a hibrid of the two vins and re-register your car.. after all black and white thinking works 

[golden73]

Re-bodying is for monetary gain, which is decieving and wrong.

If you are so emotionally attached to a car that is totalled, and you want to swap the vin to a similar car... that makes no sense to me. Why don't you just build a car to whatever specs you want?? No matter what you do, it wont be the same car. A VIN doesn't make the car.... all the other parts do.

[General_01]

Re-bodying a car is just plain wrong. For those that think there is no difference between rebodying and replacing 70% sheet metal I will try to corrolate.

An original engine is still the original engine even if it has new pistons, a new crank, new connecting rods, etc., etc. The block has not changed.

An engine is not original even if you take all the original internals out of the original motor and transplant them in a different block.

A body is the same way. Replacing rusted sheet metal on the body it came from the factory is like putting new rods in your engine. Taking the VIN and radiator support putting them in another body is like taking the original internal parts of an engine and putting them in another block and saying it is the original engine.

As far as an emotional connection to the car. What do the numbers have to do with that? If the car is totalled and you get a donor and transplant everything, including the numbers, does not change the fact that the original is in a junkyard somewhere. And if you were that attached to the car in the first place, you would think that very thought every time you looked at your "clone".

[The Ghoul]

Re-bodying a car is just plain wrong. For those that think there is no difference between rebodying and replacing 70% sheet metal I will try to corrolate.

An original engine is still the original engine even if it has new pistons, a new crank, new connecting rods, etc., etc. The block has not changed.

An engine is not original even if you take all the original internals out of the original motor and transplant them in a different block.

A body is the same way. Replacing rusted sheet metal on the body it came from the factory is like putting new rods in your engine. Taking the VIN and radiator support putting them in another body is like taking the original internal parts of an engine and putting them in another block and saying it is the original engine.

As far as an emotional connection to the car. What do the numbers have to do with that? If the car is totalled and you get a donor and transplant everything, including the numbers, does not change the fact that the original is in a junkyard somewhere. And if you were that attached to the car in the first place, you would think that very thought every time you looked at your "clone".

when was the last time you saw a lifter gallery patch pannel?
its not the same thing. we use old clean body parts to patch rusted body parts. Thus the grey area is introduced.
vin dose not make a car... true
this is getting needlessly complacated the orrigional idea of all of this was to post the simple question.
A cars shell can be restored using metal from donner cars, but the end result would be overwhelmingly donner metal.
When taking into account that each new weld joint is a potential for a weak spot.
Wouldent it be cleaner and a safer final product to just find a clean shell, and for sake of making an argument take all the clean metal from the rotted car and weld it into the clean shell?
at what point does it become a re-body?
-when the vin leaves the dash? it never did.
- when the metal around the stamped vins are replaced?
at what point does a shell become unrestorable with all that in mind?
I am reminded of some one that replaced every thing but the firewall, inner fenders, window jambs and roof.... is that a re-body?
I submit this;
a car shell with all the repop avalible is no longer restorable when the majority of the stamped vins on the shell is rusted away.
In my mind that is the only way to draw the line between restorable and non restorable shell while keeping its orrigional vin.
Its all so sticky and complacated because It was a blanket statment ment to close a loop hole to an illegual activity, that has now restricted the strictlers of this hobby.
Personally I couldent give a shit less about numbers matching, but for some reason people like to look at a build sheet, look at the vin number, look at the options, look at the drive train vins, and smile that they all match in some fanticy that a restored car is all orrigional; no matter how much sheet metal, paint, or intirror was replaced in that process... and come on when buying a numbers matching car how many people actully demand to know how much sheet metal was replaced. they are usualy more conserned with how much body filler was added!
There is alot of stuff that the statment 'rebody is wrong' just dose not cover.

[Mike DC]

               
Riddle me this:

How much of the distaste for rebodied cars is rooted in what EVERYONE ELSE thinks about it, and not what we ourselves each think? 
What if it was more acceptable to rebody a car and still call it "original?"  What if it was considered much more "fraudulent" to replace damn near the whole skin of the car (cutting up multiple donor cars in the process) and then insist that it's still the same car you started with?

What if swapping a clean 1970 Charger unibody didn't hurt the value of the car any more than a restoration?  How many of us would still have the massive objections to rebodys in this situation?

Yeah, you can argue that this should never be the case because people would be cloning everything under the sun . . . but right now you can go to B-J, and bid on 25% of a HemiCuda.  It's priced the same as an original HemiCuda.  We're kidding ourselves when we call some of these cars "restorations."  You could aruge that plenty of "restored" cars are more clones than the real thing anymore, and the only difference is that there was once a real car for each one of them.  (So, remind me how is this different from rebodying again?)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is LEE #1, the first-ever General Lee.  It's had concrete poured into the trunk, it's been jumped 81 feet through the air, then stripped down & beaten up with seldegehammers & cinderblocks & repainted green, then crashed up & stripped down again, and then finally left rotting in the woods for 23 years.



When this thing is shiny & restored (it will be soon), will YOU call it the same car that was being filmed on DOH in November of 1978? 
I won't.

.

[The Ghoul]

exilent point ^^^
I personally would take that car and leave it as-is. To me a resto on that thing is like rasing the titanic then bringing it back to origional specs. I think the history (as sad as it is) is worth more than the actull car.

[Mike DC]

The fate of LEE 1 is sealed.  It's being restored as we speak.

The Dukes hobby has been divided over whether or not the car should be restored.  Half the hobby says it's been displayed for several years as-is and it's time for the big resto.  The other half (including me) says there's not enough left to call it the same car anymore and we should just leave it as is. 

--------------------------------------------------------

An extremely detailed clone of LEE 1 (as it appeared in the pilot episode before the big jump) already exists. 

I've seen this car in person, and it's amazing.  It was built by a guy in Georgia named "Bubba" Williams, and he did a mind-blowing job of it.  The rollcage, the duct tape in certain places, the slight differences between various editions of old Vector wheels, GL decals applied crooked in a few places . . . the clone has everything.  Bubba literally wore out a storebought VCR tape of the pilot episode from freeze-framing it so much while he was building the car.



       

[TylerCharger69]

Just let it go....use the drivetrain parts to restore a good car.  That's why they are called "donors"  because apparently  what you are saying is that the body is toast  and im sure the frame itself isn't much better.   Do the right thing....destroy any evidence of the existance of the car.   You don't want to misinterpret it in any way.

[The Ghoul]

Just let it go....use the drivetrain parts to restore a good car.  That's why they are called "donors"  because apparently  what you are saying is that the body is toast  and im sure the frame itself isn't much better.   Do the right thing....destroy any evidence of the existance of the car.   You don't want to misinterpret it in any way.

oh, well then sence you put it that way I now suddenly understand 
Its called a disscusion forum for a reason. Do you think I am serriously in a position to do any of this?? Just wanted to some oppinions on it incase thers something I didnt consider.
I will never let any thing go.
welcome to the site by the way 

[Death1970Proof]

the point of that story was there was an emotional attachement to the car, not just the shell of the car...
thats the whole point, the car isnt just a shell. the car can be fixed the shell could not.
only the dmv counts a vin as a car.

With that line of anti-logic, it should be perfectly acceptable (if the individual owns both cars) to take the VIN tag out of a rare car and...................install it in a solid 318 car, restamp the rest of the body numbers, replicate a  fender tag, restamp incorrect engine and trans, and represent the finished product as original.    Emotional attachment means nothing. Its a simple issue of right and wrong. Rebodying a car is wrong. Its ALL about the money/ greed/ perception of having a rare/valuable car. All the other stuff is just lame justification. It is a felony in all 50 states and it should be. Hemi cars get rebodied, 318 cars do not. Why? Money, Money, Money.

This topic is as old as DIRT but found it intresting so here's my  This is just a scenario and for discussion sake...
Owner (A)
Say you want to fix a car up for yourself. Never to sell but for your own enjoyment strictly. No profit and no greed involved. For example you have a '68 charger that you found all but abandoned and left for dead but theres enough left to rebuild and make whole again. Problem is the vin# is missing. It's was a 318 car, nothing special but it's car you been looking for your whole life and it's your dream to make it road worthy again. You know the deal- fixing it up which is better than it rotting. Wouldnt you agree??

Owner (B)
Has a '68 charger thats been rotting to the ground for the last 15 years years. The leaf springs and frame rails are so rotted they are poking through whats left of the trunk lid. There's hardly any parts left and the vinyl top has disentegrated whats left of the roof. No motor no trans and when the car was loaded with a forklift the body all but bowed and fell in half from the severe rot. This is a 318 car with nothing special as well.  But it has a title and Vin#. Owner (B) is willing to sell the vin# and title thats  clear in his name for a fair price to help owner (A) out and make his dream come true. Like I said, with no intention of making $$$...

So because owner (A) has bought a decent car that he's been searching for all his life should just part it out because the vin is gone?? I cant agree with that...

Point being here is that out of greed I find it very wrong. But in the scenario above I couldnt blame the guy. You can hate me if you want to. I have never personally done this but see 2 sides to the coin...a car that couldnt be saved was scrapped and another car put back into use by a hobbyist who enjoys and deserves what he has and whom also worked for all of it.....If he doesnt rebody with another vin whats his other option?

It's easy to say this is wrong and thats wrong when people with to big of pockets ruin the hobby for us people who are only out to have a good time. You can afford mint rust free matching # drivetrain cars that need nothing? Go buy them then! But do go hating on me when I wanna put a super bee stripe on a '70 coronet because I thought it made the car look awesome and guess what- it wasnt done for $$$ sake.

You can take my '71 duster for example, it's not gonna have it's original 318 long but there's still a 'g' in the vin and thats the way it'll stay. Yep 100% in my name and has been since I was 16. The h code,the v code, u code whatever dosent really mean anything to me. But to each his own. Would I love to own a 69.5 b body with a 6 pack and a stick? Who wouldnt! But if I had a '69 coronet for example that I made to look like one I could care less if it had a vin read out for a 225. It looks cool, goes fast, and you arent afraid to drive it or beat on it. Thats what I call a car!! Something you enjoy!

The hobby aspect of things and or fun goes away from life when you take your car to a car show and people are more intrested in seeing if your vin corresponds with whats under the hood. So you've got a u code cuda and years back you decided you wanted v code treatment or yep a hemi and you get flack for it, thats what I think is WRONG.

Gimmie the good old days when having a car was about fun, making it go fast, putting on traction bars, 50 series tires on crager mags and your favorite aftermarket tach. Bottom line -it's your car and should be done your way.

[rt green]

i agree

[hemihead]

But that is where the problem lies ... GREED . Very few people do anything in this world out of the goodness of their heart anymore . You can bet the guy with the good title and VIN will sell it to the other guy for top $$$ . And if the man with no title really wanted a Charger he could just buy one that has a title . Like you said , it's only a 318 car . Not many people pay cash and swap VIN's on 318 cars unless they are paying for a R/T VIN .
Then the GREED and counterfeiting begin . And it is counterfeiting , plain and simple . There are 2 sides to this argument . The guys that have cars with swapped VIN ' s ( with lots to lose if found out ) and the guys who got screwed by buying one . 

[Alaskan_TA]

Moving a VIN from one car to another is a federal crime.

There are state laws about it as well.

Is moving the numbers from one car to another worth doing time for? Only you can decide that for yourself..... except....

......sometimes, the people in law enforcement can decide it for you. 

[Zinc]

My opinion on rebodies has always been, no problem with it as long as it was done with the intent on making the car stronger, safer, better mechanicly/ structualy, I don't care what numbers are on the dash, where they came from, as long as the DMV likes them, I like them, if I have a wreck, or rot bucket, and a clean shell, the only numbers that matter are the ones that the DMV likes! those are the ones the donor gets! I know your goona jump on me by saying what if you sell the car? what if you bought a rebodied car, how would you feel!whaaaaaa!!, well I wouldn't be foolish to spend $50000 for a 69  440 chargert R/T cause it was numbers matching all original, I could build a nice 69 Hemi cloned car for that kind of money, and probally have money left over!, now on the other hand if I had a "numbers Matching" 69 R/T charger that didn't set me back money wise, and some dummie want to fork over big coin, hey a sucker is soon parted with his money!, the stupidity of buying a 71 hemicuda convert for 2-3 millon!, come on, how many clones could you build with that kinda money? and if I had a rotted out 71 hemicuda that I rebodied, and you were stupid enough to part with 2 millon, it's all yours, in the end it's just a car, plain and simple, if you attach a "mystical" aura to it because of a bunch of numbers on the dash, thats your doing, why should I abide by your feeling/ thoughts on the matter?, as far as the legallity, the laws written are as you interpet them,I see them applying a vin switch as unlawful, if I stole the car, and tried to deceive the DMV into believeing it was my rightfully bought property, or if I was attaching the vin to a burt out hulk trying to decieve an insurance company for payment, but if I rebodie that rotted to death cuda convert, to another convert cuda bodie, correctly who cares, I bought both cars, I'm repairing it, how its done, dosen't matter, as long as the car is safe, well constructed, now if your dum enough to stroll along and say hey I'll give you 1 millon dollars for your hemicuda convert, fine it's yours!, you want to pay that,part with your money, just like the guys that ask you at a show, is that real!, yeah!, it's a real car, come on!, it's a car, who cares what pedigree it was born with!, it's a car! transportation! end of story! get over it! my god it's not like your buying a kidney for your transplant!