to re-body or not to re-body

[The Ghoul]

Ok, chargerkid and I were discussing this the other day *while lugging alot of very heavy metal into a very large trailer* and he suggested I pose the delema here.
I seem to recall this being discussed but it has suddenly became some what realistic.
At what point do you just decide to save your self alot of work and rebody a car?
I know it is agenst the law and for good reasion, you dont want people pulling a gone in 60 seconds *the orrigional*. You also dont want them stealing cars and swapping vins to register the car.
but...
I know of a 70 440 six pack 4 speed charger rotting away in a field. My uncles friend bought it brand new when he was 18. He drove it every day (in michigan) untill he felt that it was getting past it reliability point (14 years or so ago). He parked it next to his bar to eventually restore it one day.
It has all the stock running gear. had a good intirror untill raccoons got in and started chewing up the carpet and seats.
It is compleet.
It also has a rear window sliding into the trunk (totaly rotted out window pinch weld)
the doors have a skin of metal on the out side and wave to you about 15 minuts after you slam the door.
the rear 1/4 pannels are rotted to the corner markers.
I think the rear bumper fell off a couple of years ago
who knows what condition the roof is in other than verry 'squishy' when you press in on the vinal top.
hood, trunk lid, and front fenders are the same condition.
the thing has been sitting on its belly for years
I would be suprized if there is a square foot of good metal any where on this car.....

I just so happen to have a decently solid 70 shell, and about 31 years on him.

now all that being said. at what point is a restoration no longer taking clean metal from a donner car and putting it on the project car, and has become taking clean metal from the project car and putting it on the donner car.

I personally do not see whats so wrong about making a clean 'swap' if you own both clean titles in your name and you have no intention of letting both cars live.

I would not have the guts to try something like that to restore it to sell it off. If I ever did some thing like this it would be for my own collection and if I ever sold it I would tell the buyer about it.

the kid, is by the book on this one. a rebody is a rebody and it wouldent happen on his watch.
I told him he dosent have to look.   

Mind you this is pritty much all theory because Im not selling him my shell and he isnt getting rid of his car any time soon. Im just verry currious what yall's take on it is???

[TheGhost]

Never.

[PocketThunder]

No-one will reply "go ahead an do it" because the general consensus on this board is that a re-body is a no-no.    

I know a guy locally that rebodied Hemi C500.  i wouldnt have know it till he told me....  I'll go ahead and say, if you have no intentions of flipping it as an original sheet metal car, do it.  If you end up selling and tell the buyers up front that you have titles for both cars and tell them the whole situation, then do it.

PT

[Johnny SixPack]

I'm torn on this issue.

For one, I like PT's idea, but on the other hand the 6-pack car sounds like it is damn near toast (from a body standpoint), and just slapping its VIN on the other body and then building the the 2nd Charger to the 6-pack's specifications (using it's good parts) seems wrong on many level's, even if you are completely upfront about the whole deal.

You could just as easily build the 2nd car that way, and go without the VIN.

Kinda like taking Rosie O'Donnel and somehow working some sort of crazy magic on her and ending up with a copy of Rebecca Romijn-Stamos and then changing her fingerprints and name to match RR-S' after RR-S died.

It's still Rosie O'Donnel under all that.

Not saying that the Charger body you have is in any way comparable to Rosie though. 

[dkn1997]

No-one will reply "go ahead an do it" because the general consensus on this board is that a re-body is a no-no.    

I know a guy locally that rebodied Hemi C500.  i wouldnt have know it till he told me....  I'll go ahead and say, if you have no intentions of flipping it as an original sheet metal car, do it.  If you end up selling and tell the buyers up front that you have titles for both cars and tell them the whole situation, then do it.

PT

the big word is "if"  at some point, an owner or two later:  "matching numbers/all original sheet metal" will come out of someones mouth.

If you truly have no intentions of flipping it, get the car, transplant the running gear and burn/destroy the sixpak vin's.  That would show the world that you had no plans to pass it off as real.   Any unwillingness at all to do that leads everyone to think that you might not be thinking of it now, but are holding onto those numbers in case your kid needs braces or a college fund.  when I say "you"  not you specifically, but anyone who would rebody a car, even with the best intentions.

the six pak car is dead, strip the carcass and let it die.  I can't think of one honest reason to rebody the car.  In the end, you would still have a car with a transplanted drivetrain.  It's just a set of numbers.  you can't change what it is, only what others think it is......

[69charger2002]

couldn't agree more. fix the car with the 6 pack drivetrain. kill the VIN and have it recorded for the registry guys(how do ya like that chris!!)   
trav 

[TheGhost]

couldn't agree more. fix the car with the 6 pack drivetrain. kill the VIN and have it recorded for the registry guys(how do ya like that chris!!)   
trav 

Sounds like the best option, to me.

[dpm68]

It seems that being a Mo-purist is something to behold...especially on this site. But like others, I am torn about this. It seems that there might not be enough sheet metal in the world to fix that car up, so maybe it could end its days by being a donor just like us humans with the little hearts on our licenses. -dm

[nakita7]

A friend of mine had a 67 Hemi Coronet R/T that was rebodied. It was in his private a collection and he showed me the car. Didn't matter to me. I would have hated seeing the original car car crushed with the VIN attached. Wouldn't you?

[Chargerguy74]

I hate seeing stuff like that permanently destroyed too.

[twilt]

I am not torn at all. The only reasons to do a rebody pertain to ill gotten financial gains and/or misrepresentation of a car. All other excuses are lame. If a car reaches the point that it is not fixable, that car and its numbers need to cease to exist, regardless if it is a 6 pack, a Hemi, or a 318 car.   By doing a rebody, all that is saved  is numbers, not  a car. The end product is a fraud, plain and simple.

[hemihead]

I'm with the Kid and Twilt on this one.Besides being illegal as already stated,it is just wrong.If you aren't going to sell it as you said why use the 6 Pak vin?Would it be just to say you own a 6 Pak car?That is just wrong morally and ethically.

[Shakey]

The bottom line is to do what you want.

This topic has been brought up before and will be brought up again.

Here are some members thoughts on re-bodies from the last time it came up.

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,7428.0.html

Also, a '70 AAR 'Cuda was sold at Barrett Jackson in January for $58K USD.  It was a re-body and the seller let everyone know it.

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,8504.0.html

http://www.barrett-jackson.com/auctionresults/common/salesresults.asp

There may have been more but I recall this AAR 'Cuda.

Re-body, clone, non-numbers matching - 

There are probably a lot more re-bodies out there than we are lead to believe.  Is it right, is it wrong - I guess that is up to the individual that owns the car.  Yes, I am sure there are legal issues but I am sure that if you follow the proper procedures you can end up with a legit car after all is said and done.

Another age old question - at what point does a car become a re-body?  New floors, qtrs, sheet metal all around - 

[1972Rallye]

Have you even seen this rare '71 Super Bee Pilot Car?  It's 1 of 99 440 Six pack cars produced... It IS a rebody!  I know this because I almost bought it from the owner who had it done. It was also missing the original engine/trans at that time. Since then, the car has sold 4 or 5 times on e-bay and the FACT that the car was a rebody was never mentioned except for one time (when I insisted the seller disclose the fact on the auction or be turned in to the authorities).  The car has even, managed to find its "original" drive train - yeah right!

So what I'm saying is:  Though you may not have any intentions of representing the car as legit, you have no control over what the next owner will do (or the ones after).  It's a bad idea...

[BigBlackDodge]

Think about this......

You just paid a 100k for rare numbers matching muscle car...................only to discover that it's a rebodied common car after researching it's history! Hope you have a good lawyer!

It's not that you would resell it as something it's not (FRAUD!!!!).........it's the two guys after you that might. You're not going to keep this car forever are you?

Good intentions or no, it's still illegal.

Clone the car................but keep the orignal VIN numbers and destroy the donors numbers to save someone some grief..........possibly you!

BBD

[Chris G.]

Ghoul, whatever you do, please register both cars ASAP. www.1970chargerregistry.com 

ps- When did you grab a '70 shell? I don't remember you mentioning that here. Cool deal.

[6pkrunner]

Everyone has their definition of rebody. Swapping all the parts and leaving the VIN on the car is fine. You start swapping VINs, rad supports, etc and now you have the nice name of criminal. That's illegal and is no different than counterfeiting. Well in fact that's what you're doing.
Just swap over all the running gear and allow the soul of the old girl to live on in another body.

[derailed]

I say do what you want with it, most likely somone else would  do it down the road eventually anyhow. Like others have said as long as you dont try to sell it down the road to somone and not inform them of it. People are paying  bucks even for rebodies knowingly these days and as Shakey said theres probably alot more out there than we think. Im sure alot more people here would do the same if they already had a solid 1970 318 charger and suddenly discovered a 440 six pack car that could be obtained cheap in a field near them.

[Shakey]

Just be up front, honest and do your homework and you can't go wrong.

I recall a story where someone bought a vehicle from the inpound yard that had no VIN.  Arrangements were made with the Ministry of Transportation / DMV and there were two witnesses (Police officers) there when a new VIN was attached.  The car was then registered legally.  I can't recall where I heard this story, if it is true or if it is legal.

I am sure that if you did your homework, pleaded your case to the proper authorities and were on the up-and-up with your paperwork then you should be fine.

In ON if a car is written off in an accident it can be rebuilt.  The ownership / title is then branded "REBUILT SALVAGE" so that the next buyer knows what he / she is getting.

[twilt]

I say do what you want with it, most likely somone else would  do it down the road eventually anyhow. Like others have said as long as you dont try to sell it down the road to somone and not inform them of it. People are paying  bucks even for rebodies knowingly these days and as Shakey said theres probably alot more out there than we think. Im sure alot more people here would do the same if they already had a solid 1970 318 charger and suddenly discovered a 440 six pack car that could be obtained cheap in a field near them.

I cant disagree more with some of these statements. why woud anyone pay top dollar for a rebody, other than to flip it with non-disclosure? How can one  justify felonious bad behavior by saying "someone else would do it" Its wrong, Its unethical, its driven by greed, and its a felony in all 50 states. Why do it? your not saving a car, you would simply be saving
a set of numbers. If you want to save them, cut em out, and put em all on a plaque.  Its simple, when a car ceases to be servicable it and its numbers need to cease to exist. My guess  is that the car in question here is fixable but the real issue is doing it easier and cheaper.   

[65post]

Have you even seen this rare '71 Super Bee Pilot Car?  It's 1 of 99 440 Six pack cars produced... It IS a rebody!  I know this because I almost bought it from the owner who had it done. It was also missing the original engine/trans at that time. Since then, the car has sold 4 or 5 times on e-bay and the FACT that the car was a rebody was never mentioned except for one time (when I insisted the seller disclose the fact on the auction or be turned in to the authorities).  The car has even, managed to find its "original" drive train - yeah right!

So what I'm saying is:  Though you may not have any intentions of representing the car as legit, you have no control over what the next owner will do (or the ones after).  It's a bad idea...

Is this the car that came from Quebec Canada then went on to Ontario and beyond ?

[DC_1]

Tuff discussion because I know everyone wants to believe in the whole theory that a car like this can be saved and restored. But think deeper about what we are talking about. Get past the whole perpetual taboo of "re-bodying" a car....... what is it that we are trying to save?.......an original creation from a particular era in time?......than why is it acceptable to restore a car using newly made parts and panels (probably stamped in China) and in some cases removing 50-70% of the original car yet when it is all done we believe it to be restored and more valueable than something that could have been done with a donor body keeping more of the original workmanship and materials. I understand the whole legal issue but I think those laws  regarding VIN swapping should pertain more for theft issues than for saving historical workmanship. What I am saying is that a car is nothing more than a group of parts and components....it is not a living breathing thing. The undercarrage and shell is nothing more than a part. If it can be used to restore a car than I think it is more authentic to the origanal than something that has been pieced together from modern day tooling and components. When a car is re-bodied it is in fact more original than something that has been put together by ordering out of a Year One catalog.

Just my 2 cents

[1972Rallye]

Have you even seen this rare '71 Super Bee Pilot Car?  It's 1 of 99 440 Six pack cars produced... It IS a rebody!  I know this because I almost bought it from the owner who had it done. It was also missing the original engine/trans at that time. Since then, the car has sold 4 or 5 times on e-bay and the FACT that the car was a rebody was never mentioned except for one time (when I insisted the seller disclose the fact on the auction or be turned in to the authorities).  The car has even, managed to find its "original" drive train - yeah right!

So what I'm saying is:  Though you may not have any intentions of representing the car as legit, you have no control over what the next owner will do (or the ones after).  It's a bad idea...

    Is this the car that came from Quebec Canada then went on to Ontario and beyond ?

Sounds like it. It was in Timmins, Ontario when I was looking at it in 2000

[The Ghoul]

Ghoul, whatever you do, please register both cars ASAP. www.1970chargerregistry.com 

ps- When did you grab a '70 shell? I don't remember you mentioning that here. Cool deal.

will do when i get home.
i picked up the shell and a nice pare of doors from a board member from the old dodge-charger site.
I had an extra $600 in my pocket and he was clearing out his stuff because he just picked up a 72+?? road runner and didnt need the projects. My feance has always wanted a 69 charger so I figgured id pick up this solid shell with a good title and keep it as solid as I could untill we found a doner car for drive train and intirror, then fill in the rest with after market stuff.
A week after I picked it up my uncle introduced me to the guy that has the 70 r/t and wheels started turning.
ever sence then once a month he tells my unclet to tell me to sell the shell to him
and I tell my uncle to tell him to sell the r/t to me.

This issue is such a muck up because of what every one has said.
The only way I phrase it is as this.
I dont feel origional sheet metal is as important as the number on the vin, running gear , and opptions associated with that car.
Would you distroy the vin if a fire broke out inside the car and distroied all the intirror? no
Would you loose value of the car if you nuked a cylinder and had to swap out the block? yes
Its a fifty/fifty split on this one between right and wrong.
No I dont think that the car re-bodied should bring in as much as a garage kept all orrigional.
In the same breath tho, you cant help but mention the fact that if you replaced all the bad metal (over 70% of the body) would it be any better than a re-body?
What diffrence dose it make to replace all the bad metal with good stuff vs saving alot of time and effort replacing the good metal onto a good body?
Same thing as throwing a rod thru a block, welding the block back together, punching it out and still saying that its the stock block.

Its a rough situation for the simple fact that almost all the rest of the componets are stock to that car, even as far as all the intirror except for carpet and seat covers.
I feel that this is one of those situations where a law was put into place to keep some shady stuff from going down ( steeling a car swapping the vins with wrecked cars and then selling them off) and the reasion some think the practice in a lagitimate setting is so wrong is because its illegual.
If this was a legual practice (and you didnt care about the value of the spicific car going down from one more being on the market) would you feel any diffrently about it?

I will never get my hands on the guys r/t so its a moot point to ask or say if I should / would do it. I just think its a very intresting topic!

[Crazy Larry]

I'm curious as to why the other guy won't part with the rotting '70 R/T?

Did you say he plans on restoring it? If it is as rotted as you said - won't it ultmately end up with all new everything? So it won't be all original. But I guess whe it comes down to it, its the shell + VIN # that needs to be the original.

Great topic and good discussion on this thread!