How many people are in the market for reproduction grilles?

[Fred]

The market for someone selling a refrigerator is a heck of a lot broader than it is for someone selling fenders for one model of car.  Pricing on the fender has to be higher to offset the cost of the tooling whereas the tooling for the fridge has probably already been paid off from previous models and the money could then be used in product development and additional features in the fridge.

Absolutely. This is what people don't seem to realise.

[MaximRecoil]

The market for someone selling a refrigerator is a heck of a lot broader than it is for someone selling fenders for one model of car.  Pricing on the fender has to be higher to offset the cost of the tooling whereas the tooling for the fridge has probably already been paid off from previous models and the money could then be used in product development and additional features in the fridge.

Which is why I said: "judging by what the actual cost of manufacture is or could be,", and which is why I used the context of a "big company", i.e., the same context as in the post I replied to.

Additionally, the size of the market and tooling costs doesn't justify a fender costing 10 times what a 55 gallon drum costs, especially when said fender is made in China.

What's the market for a 1985 Chevy S10 fender? $71.11, free shipping, and that has an inner support structure welded in, unlike Charger fenders.

They charge an arm and a leg for parts that fall into the "restoration" category (i.e., parts for classic cars that can't be found at the autoparts store) because they know people are willing to spend insane amounts of money to restore a desireable car; the price isn't justified by their cost plus a reasonable profit margin.

The market for someone selling a refrigerator is a heck of a lot broader than it is for someone selling fenders for one model of car.  Pricing on the fender has to be higher to offset the cost of the tooling whereas the tooling for the fridge has probably already been paid off from previous models and the money could then be used in product development and additional features in the fridge.

Absolutely. This is what people don't seem to realise.

See above.

[JB400]

Let's see.   I am going to assume that your S10 fender is still being produced on the ORIGINAL tooling.  I color highlighted it for you    Tooling for our fenders were scrapped by Chrysler after they met their production requirements.  Therefore, new tooling had to be made, plus quality control.  All of this would have already been done for your S10 therefore making it cheaper.  Wait 10 years.  If AMD is still making our fenders, they'll be cheaper than they are today.

[MaximRecoil]

Let's see.  I am going to assume that your S10 fender is still being produced on the ORIGINAL tooling.  I color highlighted it for you  

Is that a joke? Those fenders are made in China, or Taiwan, or whatever. If they were made on "ORIGINAL tooling" that would mean they were made by General Motors, and they would be far more expensive, because OEMs are almost as ridiculous with their parts pricing as restoration companies are. GM doesn't make body panels for ~30 year old S10s anymore, and they haven't for many years.

Tooling for our fenders were scrapped by Chrysler after they met their production requirements.  Therefore, new tooling had to be made, plus quality control.  All of this would have already been done for your S10 therefore making it cheaper.  

Yes, new tooling had to be made for the S10 fender too (see above), as well as for the countless other makes/models of cars and trucks that you can buy cheap Chinese fenders and other body panels for. Even for fairly new vehicles for which the OEM still makes and sells the panels, the Chinese copies (for which they had to make their own tooling) are cheaper. My father replaced some fenders and other body panels on a '76 Chevy pickup in 1982, and he bought the overseas-made copies because they were far cheaper than buying authentic ones from GM.

Wait 10 years.  If AMD is still making our fenders, they'll be cheaper than they are today.

I predict they'll be more expensive in 10 years. Very few restoration parts have dropped in price since I started paying attention to them in '93 or so. Quite the opposite in fact.

[JB400]

Your so called New tooling for your S10 was new 30 years ago.  Tooling for them has long since been paid for.  Our 2nd gen fenders on the other hand have only been on the market less than 5 years.  We're still paying for the tooling and quality control.

[resq302]

almost all of the grilles that I have seen, 68 and 69, have the corners missing.  Mine included!  I do have a spare grille that I think was close to a fire as the one side is a little mis shaped which appears to be from heat but either way, I do have a spare but who knows how well it will mount up?

[MaximRecoil]

Your so called New tooling for your S10 was new 30 years ago.  Tooling for them has long since been paid for.  Our 2nd gen fenders on the other hand have only been on the market less than 5 years.  We're still paying for the tooling and quality control.

So you think that sheet metal stamping dies last a really long time, and that the company making that particular fender has been in business since the '80s.

Well, regardless of your speculation, here you go: 2004 Chevy Colorado fender for $57.72, free shipping.

[JB400]

I think you're trying to base your hypothesis on both vehicles being new and pretty common.  Law has it so that any car produced will have enough parts available to maintain that vehicle for 10 years.  Guess what.  Your Colorado isn't quite 10 years old.  The tooling for that vehicle are still producing original replacement parts.  All the bugs have been worked out years ago.

Also, there is quite a bit of metal content difference between a 2nd gen Charger fender and a Colorado fender or any other currently made vehicle.  I would say this hood is a little closer to a 2nd gen fender   http://www.jcwhitney.com/keyparts-hoods-cowl-hoodreverse-cowl-direct-fit/p3038764.jcwx?filterid=c2525d17162y2004g2j2  I would also say that the number of people putting this hood on their truck today is probably a direct comparison as to the number of people buying a 2nd gen fender.  What's the price?

[ws23rt]

In this discussion is the term tooling cost. It would be interesting to hear from someone that has or is working in that field.
I work in industrial mechanics and have for nearly 40 years. My understanding of the presses that can make these large stampings is they are large and very expensive. They are cost effective if they are used all the time. When equipment of this sort gets to a very large size. It has to run much of the time to support the maintenance and operator cost.
So machine time can be expensive. If it can bought at all.

As for the stamping dies. Just imagine what they have to be like. Solid steal male and female. Very precise mating fit. Then the trim has to be removed by another machine adapted for that stamping.
I am impressed that AMD has the price as low as it is for such short runs.

BTW the cost of the metal is a spit in the ocean when compared to the rest of the story.

[MaximRecoil]

I think you're trying to base your hypothesis on both vehicles being new and pretty common.  Law has it so that any car produced will have enough parts available to maintain that vehicle for 10 years.  Guess what.  Your Colorado isn't quite 10 years old.  The tooling for that vehicle are still producing original replacement parts.  All the bugs have been worked out years ago.

Say what? First your bit of speculation is that the company making the '85 S10 fender has been around since the '80s and is still using their original stamping dies, so that's why they can sell them so cheaply. Now you've switched gears and come up with some new speculation for a body style that is only 9 years old.

Also, there is quite a bit of metal content difference between a 2nd gen Charger fender and a Colorado fender or any other currently made vehicle.

Quite a bit? Not $700 worth. A Charger fender doesn't even have twice the amount of steel as that $60 Colorado fender.

I would say this hood is a little closer to a 2nd gen fender   http://www.jcwhitney.com/keyparts-hoods-cowl-hoodreverse-cowl-direct-fit/p3038764.jcwx?filterid=c2525d17162y2004g2j2  I would also say that the number of people putting this hood on their truck today is probably a direct comparison as to the number of people buying a 2nd gen fender.  What's the price?

A hood is not only about twice as large as a fender, but it also has an inner support structure welded in (even more steel, and more labor as well). That hood you posted is an overpriced novelty; Here is a standard replacement hood for $258, which is also overpriced, but it is far less than $750 for a Charger fender.

[JB400]

Just going off the examples you're giving me.  As far as the hood to fender comparison, cubic in. wise, they're comparable as well as the consumers interested in each product.

[Kern Dog]

In 1997 I needed a tailgate for my 84 Chevy truck. I saw a no-name repro tailgate and thought.. WOW! It is new and only cost $99 bucks!
I bought it and repainted the whole truck. Months later, I was planning an engine swap into my 73 Duster. I pulled a junkyard 360 from Pick N Pull and was in the bed of the truck, pulling the engine toward the tailgate to hook it up to the hoist. As I stood on the gate pulling the engine rearward, the gate bent like a taco, sending ME and over 500 lbs of cast iron 360 to the floor. That economically priced tailgate was a turd. I was on the hunt for another tailgate soon after.

[MaximRecoil]

Just going off the examples you're giving me.  As far as the hood to fender comparison, cubic in. wise, they're comparable as well as the consumers interested in each product.

No, they are not. A Charger fender is a single piece of sheet metal (no inner support structure) with a big empty space for the wheel opening. A hood has no empty space, and it has an inner support structure. The amount of steel being used for the hood is easily over twice as much. Just pick up a hood and pick up a Charger fender sometime; the hood is much heavier.

By the way, some of those Chinese fenders are practically being given away when you take into account the free shipping and the 10% off "AUGSALE" promo code (which brings that Colorado hood to $232.27, by the way).

In 1997 I needed a tailgate for my 84 Chevy truck. I saw a no-name repro tailgate and thought.. WOW! It is new and only cost $99 bucks!
I bought it and repainted the whole truck. Months later, I was planning an engine swap into my 73 Duster. I pulled a junkyard 360 from Pick N Pull and was in the bed of the truck, pulling the engine toward the tailgate to hook it up to the hoist. As I stood on the gate pulling the engine rearward, the gate bent like a taco, sending ME and over 500 lbs of cast iron 360 to the floor. That economically priced tailgate was a turd. I was on the hunt for another tailgate soon after.

What was the gauge of the sheet metal used, and what was the gauge of the OEM sheet metal for the same tailgate? The OEM tailgate probably used thicker sheet metal, but I doubt it was thicker by much, i.e., not by enough to justify charging a drastically higher price for it.

[JB400]

Are you holding the Colorado hood or the Charger hood?



Either way, I'll let you just hold on to that hood.  This thread is supposed to be about replacement grilles for our Chargers anyway.

[ws23rt]

Just going off the examples you're giving me.  As far as the hood to fender comparison, cubic in. wise, they're comparable as well as the consumers interested in each product.

No, they are not. A Charger fender is a single piece of sheet metal (no inner support structure) with a big empty space for the wheel opening. A hood has no empty space, and it has an inner support structure. The amount of steel being used for the hood is easily over twice as much. Just pick up a hood and pick up a Charger fender sometime; the hood is much heavier.

By the way, some of those Chinese fenders are practically being given away when you take into account the free shipping and the 10% off "AUGSALE" promo code (which brings that Colorado hood to $232.27, by the way).

In 1997 I needed a tailgate for my 84 Chevy truck. I saw a no-name repro tailgate and thought.. WOW! It is new and only cost $99 bucks!
I bought it and repainted the whole truck. Months later, I was planning an engine swap into my 73 Duster. I pulled a junkyard 360 from Pick N Pull and was in the bed of the truck, pulling the engine toward the tailgate to hook it up to the hoist. As I stood on the gate pulling the engine rearward, the gate bent like a taco, sending ME and over 500 lbs of cast iron 360 to the floor. That economically priced tailgate was a turd. I was on the hunt for another tailgate soon after.

What was the gauge of the sheet metal used, and what was the gauge of the OEM sheet metal for the same tailgate? The OEM tailgate probably used thicker sheet metal, but I doubt it was thicker by much, i.e., not by enough to justify charging a drastically higher price for it.

These parts are not sold by the pound.  That is the least of the per part cost by far.
As I pointed out in my earlier post. (Sorry it was not colored/highlighted)

[myk]

The market for someone selling a refrigerator is a heck of a lot broader than it is for someone selling fenders for one model of car.  Pricing on the fender has to be higher to offset the cost of the tooling whereas the tooling for the fridge has probably already been paid off from previous models and the money could then be used in product development and additional features in the fridge.

That's what some people don't understand.  Millions, BILLIONS of people the world over need appliances like stoves, 'fridges, etc.  The demand for those appliances is more than enough to pay for the cost of production and then some.  Dodge Charger grills?  Asides from the what...200 or so people here that need/want them, there's not much demand for them; consequently there's no way to cheaply bankroll the production of those grills...

[MaximRecoil]

Are you holding the Colorado hood or the Charger hood?

I've lifted the hood on a Colorado and many similar vehicles, and I've also installed fenders on my Charger. I know that pretty much any hood is a lot heavier than a Charger fender.

Either way, I'll let you just hold on to that hood.  This thread is supposed to be about replacement grilles for our Chargers anyway.

If you're concerned about what this thread is supposed to be about, then why have you replied several times on the topic of fenders? By the way, this thread also has to do with how much a reproduction grille could/should cost, and someone used reproduction Charger fenders as an example, which is how this topic arose.

These parts are not sold by the pound.  That is the least of the per part cost by far.
As I pointed out in my earlier post.

No one claimed that they were. However, weight of steel is a constant; given something that is made solely from steel, more weight = more steel, meaning the manufacturer had to purchase more steel to make the part. And your earlier post isn't even accurate. Contrary to your claim, the cost of the steel is a major part of the total cost of production of a simple one-piece stamped steel part. Making the stamping dies is child's play for a metal stamping factory, especially these days with CNC machining tools (3D scan of the original part, clean up the data, feed it into a CNC mill, and you have your dies), and Chinese labor on a production line for a one-piece stamped metal part isn't very expensive either.

(Sorry it was not colored/highlighted)

Still oblivious to sarcasm and how it is applied, I see.

[MaximRecoil]

That's what some people don't understand.  Millions, BILLIONS of people the world over need appliances like stoves, 'fridges, etc.  The demand for those appliances is more than enough to pay for the cost of production and then some.  Dodge Charger grills?  Asides from the what...200 or so people here that need/want them, there's not much demand for them; consequently there's no way to cheaply bankroll the production of those grills...

How many people need an '85 Chevy S10 fender?

And production of practically anything can be cheaply bankrolled in China. Those guys work for peanuts, and almost no order is too small for them. If you have the design all layed out in the proper format and know who to contact over there, it can be done quite cheaply, especially if you have it made as a parts kit that the customer assembles themselves.

[JB400]

I don't think the Chinese work for peanuts.  Yuan, yes and maybe grains of rice.  Peanuts, no    

[MaximRecoil]

As an example:

Do you, or does anyone you know, need a flyback transformer for a Sanyo 20-EZ or 20-Z2AW arcade monitor? These are unique to those two models of Sanyo arcade monitors, which were last manufactured in the early 1990s. Additionally, those models of Sanyo monitors were unique to arcade machines manufactured by Nintendo, who last made their own arcade machines in the late 1980s. In other words, this is a very niche item, far more niche than any part for a 2nd generation Dodge Charger.

So a guy who was particularly clever reverse-engineered an original Sanyo F5024 flyback transformer (link), sent the design off to China, and they brewed up a batch. He sold them for $45 each, not a bad price if you needed one. Then later on, some unscrupulous fellow found out which Chinese factory made those flybacks, and ordered a bunch for himself, bypassing Cinelabs who had come up with the design in the first place. He then started selling them for $29.99 (link), causing a bit of controversy in the arcade machine collecting community. So the cost to manufacture and ship to the U.S. a fairly small run of a fairly complex and very niche part was probably only about $20 a piece.

As I said, if you have the design in a format they can use as-is, and you know who to contact over there, and what to say, you can get things manufactured pretty cheaply. I assume a reproduction grille wouldn't even include the sheet metal support or the vaccuum headlight door canisters (actuators); so it is just some molded plastic, some metal trim, some round stock steel for the headlight door hinges, and a few other odds and ends. I have no doubt that it could be manufactured for way less than $1,000.

[bull]

I'm all for positive thinking...I'm also realistic. Bobfist did what you wish and hope for, but there's that money thing.

Yes, and no. I can't use a '69 center section obviously but I look at bobfist's deal as kind of an ice-breaker that will hopefully get things rolling. Had I been in his shoes (having an "in" with a major auto producer) I probably would have focused on the surrounds. I believe, or maybe assume, there would be a bigger market for those since you would essentially imultiply your market by 2-4 times (two sides, works on 68s and 69s). Either way he produced a 2nd gen grill and as far as I know they are a quality part so kudos to him.

[Cooter]

How many people need an '85 Chevy S10 fender?

And production of practically anything can be cheaply bankrolled in China. Those guys work for pianist, and almost no order is too small for them. If you have the design all layed out in the proper format and know who to contact over there, it can be done quite cheaply, especially if you have it made as a parts kit that the customer assembles themselves.

Hmmm, maybe since you make a good argument for cheaper parts, maybe YOU can repro 68-69 grilles for the good folks here?
Oh and btw, they MUST be under $900.00, complete with headlight doors, for a better than new repro made from the latest plastics, be prepainted...

[Mike DC]

Supply and demand is just a muthafucka sometimes.  There's no law or property of nature that forces the price differences to stay "within reason" just because two items appear similar. 


Tool up a Blazer fender and you can sell them for $70 all day long. 

Tool up a second Blazer fender that is purposely made 1" longer than the stock one, and fits no vehicle on earth . . . see how long it takes you to recoup that tooling cost. 

Both fenders look almost identical, don't they? 

 

[bull]

In this discussion is the term tooling cost. It would be interesting to hear from someone that has or is working in that field.
I work in industrial mechanics and have for nearly 40 years. My understanding of the presses that can make these large stampings is they are large and very expensive.

Yeah, that's about as much information as you seem to get. No one really knows the process and yet the knowledge that it's super-expensive is universal. I read something about bobfist's mould for the 69 center section being spent (used up) which makes it sound like there's a different process involved to make his than what is normal or common. I believe he was able to make his mould a lot cheaper than the typical injection mould but the problem is it doesn't last.

What's funny about all this to me is that some love to say how we'll never get the grills but when you look around at the parts we can get there are examples of large plastic items that have been produced. I mean why was the 2nd gen center console shell so easy to make? There wasn't really even much talk about the need for it but then boom, it was just there one day.

[Cooter]

I assume your referring to the fiberglass consoles? Sure, I guess someone could make grille out of fiberglass, but then again, there goes that quality thing again... the cousin bought some of the repro plastic consolesand dash parts from classic industries. and I sent them back. None of the original trim even fit properly as the mold makers didn't take into consideration that skrinking is a real concern. Therefore, the final product looked good and close until you went to bolt anything to it.