440 -> 505 Stroker build

[2Luke2]

Hello all! My girl and I bought a 70 Charger with a bad engine. We have gotten the engine tore down and at the machine shop now. We are going to have it bored .40 over. We are planning a 505-507 stroker motor and wanted to get some more experienced people to look at the build and let us know if we are making any big mistakes. The car will only be street driven, but we like to get in the throttle when the roads are open. The car has a 8 3/4 3.91 suregrip, it's an auto with power brakes, power steering, and A/C so a bit of vacuum would help. Though we aren't apposed to switching to manual brakes if needed. The A/C we don't run, but don't want to take it out in case we decide to sell it down the road. Lastly and the hardest part for us to figure out is our 6000ft altitude. Anyway here is our parts list so far.


69 440 block bored .40 over. Not decked yet due to not having the rotating assembly on hand and confusion with compression ratio desired for current altitude.
Crank - 4.250 forged crank
Rods - 7.1" chevy
Pistons - forged -4.47cc flat top
Heads - Edelbrock performer rpm 84cc straight out of the box
Rockers - Crane gold roller rockers 1.5 ratio

Cam - We are stuck here... got a couple recommendations from Lunati and Comp Cams we are sticking with the hydro flat tappet for budget reasons.
Comp Cam - Xe275HL
Lunati Voodoo- 10230703 or 10230704 maybe 10230705
We were also given some other recommendations from another forum. I'm not sure if they were being serious for a street application, but they suggested XE294H


Ignition - MSD with 6AL2 box or MSD ready to run, but I just saw some posts on this board about another option that I'm researching.
Carb - Looking for a bigger one, we have a 750 Edelbrock 1411 right now, but know we might need a bigger one.
Headers - TTI 2" with 3" collectors
Exhaust - Undecided brand/size/custom all the above

The engine should be around 11.5:1 static compression ratio and I think 9.56:1 dynamic if I did my numbers right for the first comp cam above with a 0 deck... That's a little over what I was shooting for, but was hoping someone would be able to help out with that. We have been told that the 11:1 is great here in the Springs, but also been told by Hughes that they would go 13:1. Now I know altitude makes a different, but I never knew how much. We only have 91 octane here at the pumps and we don't want to get into trouble if we drive down the mountain a few miles and get into the 4000-5000ft altitude areas. Any help or suggestions would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks
-LnL

PS... We know everyone loves pictures so we added a couple of the new and old Mopars we own. We installed a vortech supercharger on the SRT8 with some American Racing headers and tuned it ourselves via computer/tuner. It's a blast to drive! The Charger will hopefully be just as fun to drive after we are done with it!

[firefighter3931]

Wow, that's a great looking Charger Luke ! 

The build looks good for the mostpart but i'd use a different cam. The Comp XE285HL would be my choice for a street bruiser at 500ci. At 6000ft elevation you can certainly use the flat top pistons and run 11.5:1 static compression. I specced that cam for Brian's (1HotDaytona) old 493 pump gas build that he had in his 68 Charger and he loved it. Ran like a freight train from idle to redline 

Intake manifold ; Performer RPM or Holley Street Dominator
Carburator ; Proform 950 cfm double pumper

The 2in TTI's are fine and i'd use their 3in x-pipe exhaust system with a set of UltraFlow mufflers.

That combo should make close to 600hp and over 600ftlbs of torque and give your pro-charged SRT Challenger a run for it's money....maybe even beat it ! 



Ron

[tan top]

  nice looking 70 charger 

[2Luke2]

Wow, that's a great looking Charger Luke ! 

The build looks good for the mostpart but i'd use a different cam. The Comp XE285HL would be my choice for a street bruiser at 500ci. At 6000ft elevation you can certainly use the flat top pistons and run 11.5:1 static compression. I specced that cam for Brian's (1HotDaytona) old 493 pump gas build that he had in his 68 Charger and he loved it. Ran like a freight train from idle to redline 

Intake manifold ; Performer RPM or Holley Street Dominator
Carburator ; Proform 950 cfm double pumper

The 2in TTI's are fine and i'd use their 3in x-pipe exhaust system with a set of UltraFlow mufflers.

That combo should make close to 600hp and over 600ftlbs of torque and give your pro-charged SRT Challenger a run for it's money....maybe even beat it ! 



Ron

Ron, we would like to thank you for your reply. We have posted on a couple boards and have met with a lot of what seemed like negative attitudes which seemed to be from racers or shops that like to discourage people from trying to do it on their own and learn something in the process.

I forgot to post it, but we planned on grabbing the Edelbrock RPM intake.

The carb we will definitely check out your suggestion. Not a lot of experience here picking carbs, but curious as to why a race carb as opposed to a street carb. mech/vac secondaries. Also I would figure We would go for an 850 as opposed to a 950 using the CFM=CID X RPM X VE ÷ 3456 formula. Again I'm mostly speaking from what I read/hear so take it with a grain of salt. I just mostly want to learn why.

We are definitely looking at the tti x-pipe, but haven't made a decision there yet.

We're trying to get some information about the distributors/wires from CustomWireSets.com. I'm not sure what wire set to get and didn't see the distributors at all. We have a MSD 6AL2 box already, but we aren't sure if we should sell it and grab a ready to run or use it with another distributor.

Anyway thank you again we appreciate it a lot!

-LnL

[2Luke2]

nice looking 70 charger 

Thanks! We got it because of the color lol... It's not a show car when you get close, but we are going to drive it daily so... we are fine with that. 

[firefighter3931]

Luke, you're welcome. 

Most shops want to sell you parts and mark them up....no secret there. 

From my experience many shops don't have a clue when it comes to BB Mopar stuff. Have a look in the proven combo's section for some ideas on engine builds with corresponding dyno numbers. It's not rocket science as most shops would have you believe. 

I've reconfigured many "pro-shop" builds for members here that have run like poop....and come up with engine recipes that just flat out work for those starting from scratch. 

If you're interested in the FireCore product line I can help you out....I am a dealer for Firecore and would be glad to answer any questions you might have. 


Ron

[PlainfieldCharger]

Ron is most responsible for many worn tires across our North America roadway Thanks Ron, my car is running incredible    Kevin

[2Luke2]

Yes Ron, I would love to get a set of wires and distributor, but unless we find a good price on a few of the parts we need it's going to be awhile before we are ready for either of those. I will contact you when we are ready though.


Kevin, we would love to be on that list.

[2Luke2]

Ron is the 300-14 the part number for the street dominator you recommended?

Thanks!

[elacruze]

Here's my 505 build-still ongoing of course-

I built it with 3 requirements, in this order;

1. Never overheats or fouls plugs, even in hours of summer stop-and-go traffic. *win*
2. Drivability. My GF has to be able to drive it. No weird stumbles or soft spots, or 'camminess'. *win*
3. Make it as fast as possible given 1 & 2. *win*

I've been on 2 HR Power Tours, approaching 10k miles and haven't had a single regret. The engine pulls from idle to redline, hard. Drivability is near-factory quality. Doesn't get hot in traffic even with A/C on. She'll roast the tires in 2nd gear on the throttle.

To the point; I live at sea level, but the engine seems to like 1500-3000 feet of altitude for some reason, perhaps there's a little unheard detonation. I'm at 10.6:1, and if you rarely or never come below 3000 feet, I'd say 12:1 is ok, but if you aren't worried about your 1/4 mile times you don't need it.

[Kern Dog]

I ran the Comp XE285HL in my 493 in the Charger. Good cam, decent power, but if I were to go with another Comp cam, I may make the jump to the XE294 and use my 1.6 rocker arms. This would bump me to .553/.558 lift with a later intake closing. I've been dealing with detonation and a later intake closing is what I'm told will help.

[Dino]

If you are not going to run the A/C then remove it, clean it up and store it.  It's better than having it sit in the car and do nothing, that won't do it any good.  Besides, why run a belt on the compressor when it's not going to be used?

As for your brakes, a hydrobooster would be ideal for your build as it runs off the power steering so you don't need vacuum.  Do a search for it on this site, several members are running one.

[firefighter3931]

Ron is the 300-14 the part number for the street dominator you recommended?

Thanks!

Yep, that's the one....excellent manifold ! A bit lower than the RPM which allows you to run a phenolic spacer and drop base aircleaner under the factory hood. The spacer is a must have to prevent vapor lock and fuel boiling. 

The XE285HL will work fine with the RPM cylinder heads....no need to swap any parts. I'd recommend a 1.5:1 rocker ratio with this cam to keep the valvetrain stable. The Crane Gold rockers fit perfectly with the RPM heads and have outstanding geometry when used in that application. 

As for the Pro-form 950 ; lets just say it flat out works on a 500in combination. I've recommended that one for a couple of 500in builds. Mike Roberts built a very mild 505 a few years back and when he had the motor dynoed at Ray Barton's shop they were amazed at how well the carb ran right out of the box. The AFR's were spot on with no re-jetting required. 

Here is Mike's build :  http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,43911.0.html

No rush on te ignition parts....we can look at that when you get closer to installing the new powerplant. 



Ron

[2Luke2]

Thank you everyone for the suggestions and recommendations. We probably going to order the rest of the short block next week because that's when the stroker kit will be here. We will surely post pictures as we go!

[2Luke2]

Can anyone help me decide what kind of timing chain I need? I found some that aren't adjustable all the way up to some with 3 or 9 way adjustments? I would like to degree the cam, but I'm not sure I need a crazy timing chain if I do. Any help would be appreciated. Also while I'm here begging... haha... A set of comp cam hydraulic lifters should be fine for what I'm doing? I don't need to order any trick oil through ones do I? I was looking at both the high energy lifters and the pro magnum ones.

I'm most likely going to stick with the cam Ron recommended or one another person recommended. XE285HL or  XE294H

[firefighter3931]

Ron is most responsible for many worn tires across our North America roadway Thanks Ron, my car is running incredible    Kevin

You're welcome Kevin. 

Glad to hear it's running well ! 


Ron

[firefighter3931]

Can anyone help me decide what kind of timing chain I need? I found some that aren't adjustable all the way up to some with 3 or 9 way adjustments? I would like to degree the cam, but I'm not sure I need a crazy timing chain if I do. Any help would be appreciated. Also while I'm here begging... haha... A set of comp cam hydraulic lifters should be fine for what I'm doing? I don't need to order any trick oil through ones do I? I was looking at both the high energy lifters and the pro magnum ones.

I'm most likely going to stick with the cam Ron recommended or one another person recommended. XE285HL or  XE294H

The Comp Roller timing sets are very good and i've had excellent results using them. For a build like yours this is the one i would use :  http://www.summitracing.com/parts/cca-3104/overview/make/dodge


Lifters i would suggest a set of the Johnson hy-lift hydraulic tappets : http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,95605.0.html



Ron

[2Luke2]

Ron, if you lived any where near close to us we would hug you.

Thanks again for the help. It's very much appreciated! I'm sure it's not the last question we will ask, but it definitely puts us in the right direction for purchasing parts as we save the money to do so.

As a side note, I personally do large scale computer work for a living mostly databases, but I've done everything from nitrogen cooled super computer mainframes to desktop PCs. Both for large government organizations to huge private corporations.  If you ever need anything even as small as helping rid your computer of a virus please let me know and I will surely do whatever I can to help. My woman is a chemistry professor and she said she will offer you her help too as long as it's not to make any kind of LSD.


-LnL(Lisa and Luke)

[firefighter3931]

You're welcome Luke....allways glad to help. 

It's very satisfying when enthusiasts get their cars running properly and they're happy with the outcome.    Like you, i am a troubleshooter and enjoy the challenge. Lets face it ; parts are not cheap and making the wrong choices can be expensive.    I'd rather see a Charger nut get it right on the first attempt instead of banging their head on the wall wondering what's wrong 

My woman is a chemistry professor and she said she will offer you her help too as long as it's not to make any kind of LSD.

Now that is funny    No LSD here....just the odd  every now and then   



Ron

[2Luke2]

Agreed. Since it's so expensive to rebuild one of these performer engines we just don't want to get the wrong parts or overdue something to a race level that is unnecessary, but we are all for spending the money to get it right the first time.

Ron would this chain work as well since the cam shaft you suggested is 3 bolt?

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/cca-3125/overview/

[heyoldguy]

I think I would carry a rubber lined basket in the trunk if that beautiful Charger to put the engine pieces in. Or, put, not a rev limiter, but, an altitude limiter to 6000'. You have expressed the desire to learn, that you will, keep your wallet out and open. You have received excellent advice on other forums, just not what you wanted to hear. Keep fishing around 'til you hear what you want..........good idea. 12:1 above 3000'? You can do it, but it takes more cam than anyone here is recommending.

[firefighter3931]

Agreed. Since it's so expensive to rebuild one of these performer engines we just don't want to get the wrong parts or overdue something to a race level that is unnecessary, but we are all for spending the money to get it right the first time.

Ron would this chain work as well since the cam shaft you suggested is 3 bolt?

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/cca-3125/overview/

Luke, the XE285HL is a 1 bolt upper gear camshaft 

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/cca-21-228-4/overview/make/dodge


Ron

[firefighter3931]

I think I would carry a rubber lined basket in the trunk if that beautiful Charger to put the engine pieces in. Or, put, not a rev limiter, but, an altitude limiter to 6000'. You have expressed the desire to learn, that you will, keep your wallet out and open. You have received excellent advice on other forums, just not what you wanted to hear. Keep fishing around 'til you hear what you want..........good idea. 12:1 above 3000'? You can do it, but it takes more cam than anyone here is recommending.

Jim, are you saying that 11.5:1 with the XE285HL & a tight quench closed chamber aluminum head won't run on pump premium at a mile of elevation ?

The compression could allways be lowered to 10.5:1 but inmo that wouldn't be necessary. 


Ron

[2Luke2]

I think I would carry a rubber lined basket in the trunk if that beautiful Charger to put the engine pieces in. Or, put, not a rev limiter, but, an altitude limiter to 6000'. You have expressed the desire to learn, that you will, keep your wallet out and open. You have received excellent advice on other forums, just not what you wanted to hear. Keep fishing around 'til you hear what you want..........good idea. 12:1 above 3000'? You can do it, but it takes more cam than anyone here is recommending.

I'm sorry sir, but could you refer me to what advice you're referring to? I feel as though you feel like I disrespected you because of your need to post this here. My intentions were not to do that, but to get more opinions. If I took the word of the first car salesman on the internet I probably wouldn't end up getting what I really wanted. My apologies if you do feel that way.

[2Luke2]

Ron, would you recommend the Indy EZ heads over the Edelbrock RPMs? I asked because I was looking up some flow numbers and it seems out of the box the EZs are a bit better. I know they cost a bit more, but since I'm running them out of the box I figured it might be worth it to spend the extra money up front. What do you think?