removing AC

[74bluecharger440]

 I have a 440 magnum with factory air. It doesn't work and   I have no intention of ever using it anyway. I have removed all components except the compressor. I did remove it and found the belts no longer worked , even different lengths.seems I need an other pulley and mount to get the belt to go around to where the old ac compressor was.. Is this so  or am I missing something  ..Any pics and info would be appreciated.So the compressor is back on and that is the way I am driving it till I figure out how to loop the belts.. Thanks .

[Baldwinvette77]

there are some companies that offer a/c delete pulleys, basically just idler pulleys that go in place of your compressor 

[XH29N0G]

I did this a few years back (actually about 30) and swapped in different belt sizes to work out a 'unique' belt configuration that worked for a long time.   The people who are now restoring it are now swapping the pulleys and putting it to a correct non-AC configuration.  I will see them tomorrow and will ask what they have done, and what they used.  If it is not already posted by that time, I'll post it.

[A383Wing]

to do it right, you will need the non-AC 2 groove crank pulley and the non-AC single groove water pump pulley...plus the non-AC water pump. You may or may not have to have the non-AC alternator brackets as well

Bryan

[maxwellwedge]

You should be fine with the A/C water pump - I think it has lower drag and was an old trick for an extra pony or two.

[A383Wing]

AC pump & non-AC pump has different fins and different impeller width....they are different and it will not cool correctly if wrong pump is used..

don't ask how I know this

[maxwellwedge]

 

[John_Kunkel]

The reason the A/C water pump has fewer/smaller vanes is because they drive it faster to increase fan speed with A/C. Using the A/C pump with non-A/C pulleys does save HP but it also decreases coolant flow.

[A383Wing]

yes, and if you use a non-AC pump on an AC car, the more vanes and larger vanes just cavitate the water like a boat prop will...no cooling either...that's the one I found out about

Bryan

[74bluecharger440]

Okay lots of info  much appreciated.  Here is my thinking  if the pulley i use to replace the compressor is the exact same size why will I need to worry about the water pump cavitating ??  Everything will be moving at the same speed . I am a plumber not a mechanic ( witch is why i love the info this site offers) I understand pumps and water . My brain tells me if I replace  pulleys with every thing being the same size I should have no issues??  Yes???  No?

[A383Wing]

I thought you were gonna remove compressor completely and make pulleys like stock non-AC car

my bad

Bryan

[ws23rt]

Okay lots of info  much appreciated.  Here is my thinking  if the pulley i use to replace the compressor is the exact same size why will I need to worry about the water pump cavitating ??  Everything will be moving at the same speed . I am a plumber not a mechanic ( witch is why i love the info this site offers) I understand pumps and water . My brain tells me if I replace  pulleys with every thing being the same size I should have no issues??  Yes???  No?

My  says that if you keep the water pump you have for AC application than it will try to push more water than a non AC unit. The thermostat should control the cooling issue. The difference between AC and non AC pumps is not great. Some extra effort is needed to push the AC unit and cavitation is something that may happen to a small degree but not be an issue. Not moving enough water is far more important than trying to move too much.

[A383Wing]

yea, one would think that, but in reality, it does not work that way...I had non-AC pump on AC pulley car...constantly overheated....impeller was so big and had more vanes that water just cavitated inside.

Bryan

[ws23rt]

yea, one would think that, but in reality, it does not work that way...I had non-AC pump on AC pulley car...constantly overheated....impeller was so big and had more vanes that water just cavitated inside.

Bryan

So a non-AC pump trying to cool an AC pulley car that overheats does make sense. It can't move water as well. An AC pump has an impeller that more fully fills the chamber in the pump housing and therefore moves more water per rev. If the water has no place to go because the thermostat says so- it will just cavitate perhaps as the rpm dictates.

[ACUDANUT]

to do it right, you will need the non-AC 2 groove crank pulley and the non-AC single groove water pump pulley.... You may or may not have to have the non-AC alternator brackets as well

Bryan

true.

[A383Wing]

yea, one would think that, but in reality, it does not work that way...I had non-AC pump on AC pulley car...constantly overheated....impeller was so big and had more vanes that water just cavitated inside.

Bryan

So a non-AC pump trying to cool an AC pulley car that overheats does make sense. It can't move water as well. An AC pump has an impeller that more fully fills the chamber in the pump housing and therefore moves more water per rev. If the water has no place to go because the thermostat says so- it will just cavitate perhaps as the rpm dictates.

yes, and the opposite is true as well. AC pumps have smaller vanes and do not fill the chamber fully in housing, that combined with larger water pump pulley on a non-AC car will not spin the water enough to cool properly either

It'a a no-win situation either way, correct pump with correct pulleys need to be used in order for cooling system to cool engine in proper manner

[XH29N0G]

I just noticed that the Factory service manual has the pulley set ups and information about the vanes.  Guess that is to be expected.

I have a puzzling question related to the pump vane/pulley ratio issue.  So I went to see my car today and asked about the pump vane/pulley ratio question to the guy who is doing the work.  He said it is a complicated issue and that too fast flow can cause problems just like no flow.  He thought it had to do with how long the coolant sat in the radiator.  Anyway, he agreed about possible issues with mixing and matching.  Looks like we are going with non AC vanes and non AC pulleys in my formerly AC car.

[A383Wing]

yup, that's the way to do it if you are taking out the AC system. The crank pulley and the water pump pulley are about the same size for a non-AC car

Bryan

[ws23rt]

yea, one would think that, but in reality, it does not work that way...I had non-AC pump on AC pulley car...constantly overheated....impeller was so big and had more vanes that water just cavitated inside.

Bryan

So a non-AC pump trying to cool an AC pulley car that overheats does make sense. It can't move water as well. An AC pump has an impeller that more fully fills the chamber in the pump housing and therefore moves more water per rev. If the water has no place to go because the thermostat says so- it will just cavitate perhaps as the rpm dictates.

yes, and the opposite is true as well. AC pumps have smaller vanes and do not fill the chamber fully in housing, that combined with larger water pump pulley on a non-AC car will not spin the water enough to cool properly either

It'a a no-win situation either way, correct pump with correct pulleys need to be used in order for cooling system to cool engine in proper manner

I won't second guess what is designed for a given application. I speak from an understanding of the way things work in general. but when something doesn't fit the world I see I have questions. In the industrial world I work in cavitation is an extreme condition that happens at high rpms and high pressure. I don't see those conditions in this case. But I give in on this here because I can not speak with the math to back it up.

[ws23rt]

I just noticed that the Factory service manual has the pulley set ups and information about the vanes.  Guess that is to be expected.

I have a puzzling question related to the pump vane/pulley ratio issue.  So I went to see my car today and asked about the pump vane/pulley ratio question to the guy who is doing the work.  He said it is a complicated issue and that too fast flow can cause problems just like no flow.  He thought it had to do with how long the coolant sat in the radiator.  Anyway, he agreed about possible issues with mixing and matching.  Looks like we are going with non AC vanes and non AC pulleys in my formerly AC car.

That just tripped my old farts memory. If the thermostat is wide open and the flow is too high the heat exchange is compromised.

[ACUDANUT]

So a non-AC pump trying to cool an AC pulley car that overheats does make sense. It can't move water as well. An AC pump has an impeller that more fully fills the chamber in the pump housing and therefore moves more water per rev.

It does not make sense, and your correct.  I removed all my A/C and left the water pump on 20 years ago.  Stiil no problem.

[74bluecharger440]

wow lots to think about for a simple removale of the compressor

[charger Downunder]

Talking about water pumps check out this link you will learn something.
http://www.1962to1965mopar.ornocar.com/waterpumpsmopar.html

[A383Wing]

yea...that's what I'm talking about with regards to the diameter & number of blades. I don't think the "direction" will matter. The flat part of the blades are still straight that move the water

Bryan

[ACUDANUT]

I saw that link. I think someone thinks the direction of the water pumps impellers are different. They only spin one way...period.