What are some good mods I should do for my car? (would love Pro Tourers input)

[1968_Charger]

great info. thanks!  ive never really took the time to understand how to setup a suspension. this helps.

[HPP]

Here is a good summary of step by step mods and the resulting seat of the pants feel they produced. While this is on an E body, the results would be similar for a B body. Definetly worth a read

http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=68667.0

[Jarven]

Great suggestions all the way around . I would add to this list a set of 2"drop spindles. You want proper geometry with an aggressive lowered stance. Since I did them it has to be one of top ten upgrades I've done.....and I've done allot......

Pardon my bad english, located in Sweden.
This is the 3rd thread I'll bump..  Sorry about that but there was something here that I would like to have som more input on before I buy more parts for my precious charger!

My -69 charger is a 440 R/T so I feel I should keep it as original as possible but still with a better handling compared to riding on a drunken elephants ass. Recently lowered the car 3-4" just by losening the original torsionbars and modifying the rear hangers and added some lowering blocks. This was just to get a feel for the rideheight with my 19" wheels and to see how the front geometry changed. With no front alignment done it was scary doing any corners whatsoever! Cruisin above 80mph can be compared with steering a boat in full storm.. Its all over the road
The RMS and XV stuff look really nice but is not an option for me.

I have bought this so far:
MOOG UCA offset bushings
MOOG Upper ball joints
MOOG Lower ball joints
Energy Suspension bushing kit
Energy Suspension leaf spring bushings
Edelbrock performer IAS Front
Edelbrock performer IAS Rear
Summit sway bar kit front
Summit sway bar kit rear
Torsion bar 0,98" Mopar perf

What I'm planning on buying after reading numerous threads about handling both here at DC.com and over at Cuda-Challenger.com:
US Cartools full set of torqueboxes, front and rear.
US Cartools subframe connectors
Firm feels stageIII steering box (skipping out on the fast ratio arms though, wise or unwise?)

What I need help deciding is this:
Autodynamics (love your car) suggests adding 2" dropped spindles to get better geometry.
I remember reading a thread concerning E-body geometry (can't find it now) where the conclusion was that lowering the car actually improved the geometry without using dropped spindles IF you could fix the caster issue with f.ex offset bushings or hotchkis tubular UCA's. Lowering the steering tie rods fix point on the spindle would also reduce bump steer. Bump steer however would have been increased if dropped spindles were used.
Taller spindles would (atleast in my mind) give me better geometry in the front. Are there any drop spindles out there that are slightly taller than stock?
My biggest concern lowering my charger as much as I have without using dropped spindles is the increased shock travel.
Any good ideas what to do here. All input is greatly appreciated!

Magnus

[mpdlawdog]

 

[MSRacing89]

We do not run drop spindles as the most important thing is lowering your CG and at the same time minimizing camber gain and bump steer.  That is where some of the development done by Hotchkis and others is important.  We do run all the adjustable front end parts to allow us to regain all the correct settings.  We run around 2½ to 3 inches of shock travel.  You should not see more then that at the track and for sure not more than that on the street.

[HPP]

Pardon my bad english, located in Sweden.

No pardons necessary, we all speak Charger here!

I have bought this so far:
MOOG UCA offset bushings
MOOG Upper ball joints
MOOG Lower ball joints
Energy Suspension bushing kit
Energy Suspension leaf spring bushings
Edelbrock performer IAS Front
Edelbrock performer IAS Rear
Summit sway bar kit front
Summit sway bar kit rear
Torsion bar 0,98" Mopar perf


What I'm planning on buying after reading numerous threads about handling both here at DC.com and over at Cuda-Challenger.com:
US Cartools full set of torqueboxes, front and rear.
US Cartools subframe connectors
Firm feels stageIII steering box (skipping out on the fast ratio arms though, wise or unwise?)

This is a good list of parts to start with. The torsion bars are a bit small, I'd recommend the 1,0 size for a big block car, but even the 0,96 bars your looking at are a good step up from stock. The shocks may be questionable for the simple fact that you have lowered your car quite a bit. This may put them out of the ideal range of operation. You might check the technical aspects of their operating range and compare that to the stock range of the Charger. I believe the Edelbrock shocks are designed for cars that are lowered slightly-2 to 3 inches from stock, but the stock ride height of a Charger is actually rather high, so the 4" you've dropped it may be okay.

The fast ratio arms are a personal preference. If you drive on a lot of close, tight in, low speed (under 60kph) streets, they may make steering a car as large as the Charger a little easier. If the roads in your area tend to be more open and high speed (90+ kph), you may want to skip them.

What I need help deciding is this:
Autodynamics (love your car) suggests adding 2" dropped spindles to get better geometry.
I remember reading a thread concerning E-body geometry (can't find it now) where the conclusion was that lowering the car actually improved the geometry without using dropped spindles IF you could fix the caster issue with f.ex offset bushings or hotchkis tubular UCA's. Lowering the steering tie rods fix point on the spindle would also reduce bump steer. Bump steer however would have been increased if dropped spindles were used.
Taller spindles would (at least in my mind) give me better geometry in the front. Are there any drop spindles out there that are slightly taller than stock?
My biggest concern lowering my charger as much as I have without using dropped spindles is the increased shock travel.
Any good ideas what to do here. All input is greatly appreciated!

Magnus

This is where things get tricky. In stock form with stock geometry, bump steer is a problem on old mopars. This is because the torsion bar interferes with the inner tie rod location and puts the tie rod in an alternate arc than the control arm. In the analysis I've done, using a drop spindle creates additional bump steer over stock. Using a taller spindle creates additional bump steer over stock, but not as much extra bump as the drop spindle creates. One advantage the taller spindles do have over either other spindle is that they are lighter, meaning less unsprung weight, and they create additional camber gain as the suspension cycles. The extra camber gain helps keep the tire vertical to the road surface as the car body rolls over.

Lowering the car using the stock spindle creates more favorable roll center geometry. If you have larger sized torsion bars and the roads where you drive a smooth, this may be the best way to go as it reduces body roll and retains stock geometry in body roll. But, like you mention, getting caster with this combo and the stock upper control arms become a trade off. The easy fix a tubular arm with additional caster built in. Additionally, as you mention, lowering more than a couple inches usually means you need to get a shorter shock to mach the reduced travel. These are out there and available in fixed valving, single adjustable or double adjustable if you really want to dial in suspension performance. The stock spindle is a forged steel unit.

Lowering the car with drop spindles creates more favorable range of motion but does not change the arm motion geometry much from original. So, if you use a smaller diameter torsion bar and/or the roads where you drive are more rough, this may be the best combination. This allows you to achieve a low ride height, with a fair amount of suspension travel and without the caster/camber compromise of using stock control arms. Another bonus is it allows you to use the typical, made for mopar shocks in stock lengths. The Magnumforce drop spindle is a cast steel unit.

There are 2" drop spindles in the taller configuration made by Fatman Fabrications. These were designed for use in street rods that utilize the mopar transverse torsion bar set up. These spindles are large and heavy compared to the other two above. Off the top of my head, I think stock spindles are 5#, Magnums are 6# and Fatmans are 10#. So you will be increasing unsprung weight using these, and that is never a good thing. The spindles are a large steel plate with a welded ball joint mount and a pressed in axle shaft. I have never heard of any failures with these units, but I think their street rod background means most have not been driven exceedingly hard. If you are really interested in the camber gain achieved by tall spindles, you can use an Afco raised roll center ball joint. These do come with the mopar thread in configuration, are very smooth in motion, and are rebuildable. however, if your using large sway bars to limit body roll, camber gain may not be a big issue.

Hope that helps you in your decision.

We do not run drop spindles as the most important thing is lowering your CG and at the same time minimizing camber gain and bump steer.  That is where some of the development done by Hotchkis and others is important.  We do run all the adjustable front end parts to allow us to regain all the correct settings.  We run around 2½ to 3 inches of shock travel.  You should not see more then that at the track and for sure not more than that on the street.

These are somewhat conditional statements. Obviously dropping the COG and reducing bump steer are big issues, but desired camber gain is really dependant upon body roll, road/track banking, and down force. I'd also say the desired suspension travel is dependant upon road conditions and wheel rates. Softer rates and crappy roads will use up suspension travel quickly, so you want to make sure you have enough to prevent bottoming.  

TC

[dangina]

First step is to get the wheels and tires you want. Then set the ride heigth you want, then have the alignment set up. Keep in mind that as you get lower in a mopar, it becomes more difficult to get postive caster. So, while you can ask for those specs at the alignment shop, they may not be able to hit them spot on and may come back with an alternate they can hit. Just remember that you want as much postive caster as possible, with slightly negative to zero camber and minimal toe. The big rub with mopars is the interrelationship of caster and camber and as you increase one, you may reduce the other so it becomes a trade off very quickly on what you can acheive.

I usually like around -2 to -2.5 degress of camber on my cars - how much castor can I get with that on the old mopar?

bilstein shocks are a must (and cheaper than the edlebrocks), and bigger sway bars to improve handling, a 1" torsion bar is good (cheap at pst), most pro-touring guys run the 1.06 bars, the more serious ones run bigger than that.
I have a buddy who ran a rms on his dodge dart and runs the billsteins and swaybars on his 71 cuda and swears the difference is minimal and that he shouldn't have spent so much money on the rms kit.

Best deal I found on tubular sway bars - you won't find them cheaper and only took a week to get them:


http://www.sdtrucksprings.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=16954

http://www.sdtrucksprings.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=10105



for reference:



http://www.hellwigproducts.com/products/street-performance/tubular-sway-bars/

for cheap big brake kits doctor diff is the way to go:

http://www.doctordiff.com/?page_id=41

[JeffYoung]

I am an SCCA road racer but love my old Charger (72 Rallye, 440, 4 speed).  Have been slowly working on the handling and am now very happy with it. It is still tire limited but the "feel" is similar to mid 90s European performance sedan.

Firm Feel Stage 3
Biggest T-bars they ahd (1.19?)
"Road race" rear leafs
Bilstein shock package
Tubular uppers to get the caster.
11/16 tie rods
Poly bushes all around.
Biggest front and rear sways FF offers.


I'd say the change over stock is dramatic. Car does NOT ride harsh. It's fun ride. Has some squeaks and rattles but overall very fun. Highly recommend the FF stuff.

[HPP]

I usually like around -2 to -2.5 degress of camber on my cars - how much castor can I get with that on the old mopar?

That's a lot of camber, but you probably needed on the strut suspension you used to run. On a strictly street car, I'd say your going to wear out tires unsually fast with that much camber on a mopar. As you eliminate body roll, you can reduce the amount of static camber required as the mopar SLA suspension design will produce adequate negative camber gain as it cycles. Additionally, that much camber may make it very difficult to get postive caster. In a stone stock set up, I'd bet you will be hard pressed to get more than 1-2* of positive caster with 2-2.5* negative camber.You can manipulate that figure some with offset bushings or tubular control arms, but that is the compromise with pre 72 B body bushing set up.

[dangina]

I usually like around -2 to -2.5 degress of camber on my cars - how much castor can I get with that on the old mopar?

That's a lot of camber, but you probably needed on the strut suspension you used to run. On a strictly street car, I'd say your going to wear out tires unsually fast with that much camber on a mopar. As you eliminate body roll, you can reduce the amount of static camber required as the mopar SLA suspension design will produce adequate negative camber gain as it cycles. Additionally, that much camber may make it very difficult to get postive caster. In a stone stock set up, I'd bet you will be hard pressed to get more than 1-2* of positive caster with 2-2.5* negative camber.You can manipulate that figure some with offset bushings or tubular control arms, but that is the compromise with pre 72 B body bushing set up.

good to know - thanks for the reply

[Jarven]

Thanks for all the well thought replies.
I regret buying the 0.98" T-bars. Should have gone for bigger but I guess I can always buy new ones if I'm not happy with them.
I'll stick with the stock spindles for now but maybe I'll get those afco raised upper ball joints and see how that works out.
Tubular UCA's is quite expensive in my opinion so I'll stick with the stock ones for now since I already have the moog offset bushings for them.
When it comes to swaybars I believe bigger is not always better. Maybe I'll build myself som adjustable "knife" swaybars later.
Any suggestion on aftermarket adjustable strut rods?

I have one more (kinda stupid) question.
I see that some companys sell "adjustable steering rods". I haven't touched my charger yet so I don't know for sure but being used to european cars I believed the stock steering tie rods were already adjustable. Aren't they? If already adjustable, whats the advantage with the aftermarket ones?

[dangina]

I have one more (kinda stupid) question.
I see that some companys sell "adjustable steering rods". I haven't touched my charger yet so I don't know for sure but being used to european cars I believed the stock steering tie rods were already adjustable. Aren't they? If already adjustable, whats the advantage with the aftermarket ones?

Removes unwanted play and excessive movement in the front suspension.
also positively positions the lower control arm.
I`m not sure if the stock ones has as much adjustability as the aftermarket ones..