Help me get this 451 Running

[HDCharger]

Semi Initial Start-up. She ran about 18 months ago for 10 minutes.  I have spent all day trying to get this thing to fire.  Doing this my myself so it is a little more difficult.  Here is where I am at:

1.  I  put new 15-40 oil in, GM EOS and primed with drill and rod.
2.  Primed fuel, finally got fuel visible in the clear filter right before carb but it drains back to the  vapor cannister immediate after I quit cranking not sure if that is normal
3.  I put my compression quage on #1 bumped it around to TDC to ensure I was on the compression stroke.
4.  I hooked my timing light up with ignition switch on (Not Run)  and rotated the distributor till got a flash.
5.  I sprayed a little fuel into the carb, replaced breather and tired to fire it.  Hits a little but will not start.

Looking for some help. I've about exhausted my knowledge base.  I'm thinking either the timing is a little off or its not getting fuel, however, I do see fuel in the carb bowl glass. 

For those who do not know what I am working on:
451
Eddy Heads
770 Street Avenger Carb (Holly 830 on the way)
Carter Mechanical Fuel Pump
Mopar (Orange Box) Electronic Ignition

[firefighter3931]

Fill the bowls up using the vent tubes to make sure there is enough gas to keep it going once it fires. I'll assume you checked for spark and it's there. Get it lined up at tdc and leave the distributor slightly loose. Have a helper turn the engine over while you rotate the distributor until it fires. Sometimes the outer ring on the balancer slips making the timing reference off. Rotating the distributor while the engine is being turned over should do the trick if there's spark and fuel.

The fuel line is dry and make take several seconds to prime....filling the bowls will give you enough fuel to get it going until the pump catches up.  

Ron

[Rolling_Thunder]

just fill thw bowls of the carb...   its not getting enough run time to suck fuel up to the carb it sounds like

[HDCharger]

Ron, When you say vent tubes you do mean the tubes directly underneath the butterflys?  Dave

[firefighter3931]

Dave, there are 2 raised tubes that are at opposite ends of the carb. These tubes are vents for the bowls, but you can backfill the carb (bowls) using these tubes. If you look at the circular opening on the top of the carb, one will be at 6 o'clock and the other at 12 o'clock. That is, looking at the carb mounted on the engine. Hope that makes sense...

Ron

Ps. Here's a pic of the avenger carb : on the back of the throat there is a tube sticking up : that is the vent for the secondary bowl. The front vent is the tube that is cast in the choke horn. That is the important one because the carb will run on the primary venturi's when you fire it up. 

[HDCharger]

Ron, i just went and took a look at it.  I see where you are talking about I think.  I have to take the screw out of it?  There is a window on the 770 on the side of the bowls and it appears that there is fuel in the bowls.  The rear bowl is at the top of the window and the front is at the lower edge of the window.  Dave

[firefighter3931]

Those side screws are for setting the float levels...that's not what i'm talking about. Looking down at the top of the carb at the front and back of the air inlet (throat) there are 2 tubes sticking up. The front tube is part of the choke horn where the butterfly flap is located. I wish i could insert an arrow in that pic, lol !

Ron

[HDCharger]

OK.  I got it.  I will try it out tomorrow and see what happens.  Have there been problems with the avenger carb bowl viewing glass that you know of?  Mine appear to be cracked.  Oh well, I have to 830 on the way but was planning on using the 770 on a 360 I have in my 76 PowerWagon.  Thanks, Dave

[firefighter3931]

OK.   I got it.   I will try it out tomorrow and see what happens.   Have there been problems with the avenger carb bowl viewing glass that you know of?   Mine appear to be cracked.   Oh well, I have to 830 on the way but was planning on using the 770 on a 360 I have in my 76 PowerWagon.   Thanks, Dave

Good....glad we got that worked out  

The side viewing glass you're talking about are basicly transparent screws. Their function is to allow you to set the float levels without having to remove the brass screw that these carbs normally come with. Those clear sights are aftermarket plastic pieces and are know for problems. Specificly, they will distort and melt eventually causing raw fuel leakage. You do not want fuel leaking onto the hot intake manifold...can you say FIRE ! Keep an eye on it and replace as soon as possible with the proper brass sight screw.

Good luck with the fireup tomorrow. Let us know how it goes  

Ron

[Chryco Psycho]

Tell me you do not have your fuel  line connected to the carbon canister

[HDCharger]

Chryco, I have the fuel line from the tank to the Pump, out of the pump to the bottom inlet of the cannister and out of the top to a clear filter to Carb.  The 1/4" vapor return out the top back into the return line.  Dave

[HDCharger]

OK Fellas, I got her to run for about 10-15 seconds and then she dies.  I am thinking its got to be burning the fuel in the bowls and its not filling them.  What do you think?

[Rolling_Thunder]

sounds like it....    hmmmm....   

[HDCharger]

Been messing with this thing all day with no luck.  Ran a couple times for 10 or 15 seconds, some serious black soot coming out the tail pipes.  I'm about to get discouraged.  Know anyone in the Fort Campbell, KY (Clarksville, TN) Area?

[Chryco Psycho]

Ok vapor separator not the Canister Whew
sounds to me like the float level is set too high or the floats are stuck or sunk in the fuel bowls & it is flooding out if there is a lot of black smoke

[firefighter3931]

Have a look at the plugs...what color are they ? What plugs are on the motor ? If the plugs are fouled or the wrong heat range it will be cold blooded. Take a look at the spark quality....ground the plug end onto the header and turn it over : blue spark is good...orange/yellow spark means it's weak ignition. Make sure your vapor seperator isn't plugged and fuel is getting up to the carb. If you've got a filter above the seperator then bypass it to see if the engine runs.

Ron

[HDCharger]

Ron/Chryco, I bypassed the seperator with really no change.  Plugs are NGK and I pulled the # 1 and its a sooty black gas looking crap on it so I am thinking perhaps it may be a bad spark.  I will check that today and make sure the orange box is grounded good and see if I have any better luck.  Floats could be stuck I guess since this carb have been sitting atop this engine for 3 or 4 years now.  BTW that black @#$% is hard to get off your white garage door.

[HDCharger]

Don't know if this clear enough but here is what the #1 plug looks like.

[HDCharger]

Ron, I grounded the #1 plug and spark was Orange.  I checked the voltage at the coil and it appears to only be about 6 volts.  Where do I go from here?  Coil is a brand new accel Super Stock, Ballist resistor is the one that came with the MP Electronic Conversion Kit.  Dave

[HDCharger]

Here is a diagram of how of have the Ignition wired, just want to make sure this is correct.  Dave

[firefighter3931]

Start off with new plugs. NGK : BCP6ES is the plug you want. Start with the plugs first and see how it runs. You could be looking at an ignition upgrade in the near future....the chrome boxes work better than the orange ones but i prefer MSD ecu's.

Also: have a look at the glass fuel filter while turning the engine over...make sure the fuel pump is working.

Ron

[HDCharger]

Ron. thanks for the help buddy.  I'm at my wits end on this car.  That is the plugs I have, they have maybe 10 minutes on them.  I've spent maybe 6 gran or more on this engine and it will NOT run.  The MP Orange Box only has 10 mintues run time on it too.  I'm getting fuel to the carb for sure.  The only thing I can think of now is the Spark.  Was my wiring correct in the above diagram?  I'm going to get a ECU today from Auto Zone or somewhere and see if that makes a difference.  Dave

[firefighter3931]

Dave, wiring looks fine. I've had problems with those orange boxes as well. Your plugs fouled because of the weak spark. If the cam hasn't been broken in yet you need to do that....VERY important !!! Once you get it running, bring the rpms up to 2500 and hold it there for 20-25 minutes. Get a timing light on it and adjust for 36* advance at 2500 for the breakin. Blip the throttle every now and then to promote lifter rotation. Maybe throw some fresh 93 octane gas in there if the fuel in the tank is old/stale. Good luck !

Ron

[HDCharger]

Good News!!!  I changed the plugs, parts store did not have the NGKs so out of necessity I crossrefenced to an Autolite plug and installed them and bought a Borg Warner control module to replace the Orange Box just to see what happens.  Well, 1 Spin and she roared to life.  I was like a 7 year old at Christmas!  The bad news is that she ran dry of gas.  One minute the pump was filling the clear filter and the next she was dry.  I only put about 4 gallons in a brand new tank and lines so I'm not certain if that was enough or the pump is kaput?  Anyway, I shut her down and put her back in the garage until the weekend when I will have some help here to look for leaks, etc.   Thanks for all your help.  Dave

[firefighter3931]

Good news Dave !  Get the fuel delivery sorted out and you're in business ! Another orange box bites the dust 

Ron