Bashing the domestic manufacturers

[mystarcollectorcar.com]

I'm guessing that most of you guys are like me-you really like cars.So the big question is "why do some 'car' sites go so far out of their way to bash the Big 3?

Nobody can argue that the dynamics of the car industry have really changed and these guys have a fair amount of ammo given the last 3 years.But once they get bored with hacking on the new stuff from Detroit, they'll pick something like a 55 Pontiac and try to compare it to a new Honda.

It's a lot like comparing a Stealth bomber with a B-17.Not really fair.But one thing's for sure-that B-17 was pretty effective in 1943 so what's the point of laughing at it in 2010? That's smug and arrogant and it makes me wonder why these sites even have the word "car" in them.

So we wrote what we thought about it...
http://www.mystarcollectorcar.com/4-community/letters-to-the-editor/500-we-love-old-carswe-just-dont-love-car-sites-that-cheapshot-them.html

[bull]

They're getting bashed because they're consistantly getting their butts kicked by foreign auto makers. Haven't you ever talked to an avid fan of a crappy sports team? He's usually the toughest critic of the team he's pulling for. I like Chrysler but I hate how they operate now. People want to see their "team" do well and it's annoying when they make stupid decisions that make things worse. Americans want to see Americans win like the American auto makers did back during the muscle car era. Sure times have changed but no one wants to lose all the time.

[Rolling_Thunder]

 

[nh_mopar_fan]

Alot of these bashers are replaying old tapes that from the 70s and 80s when there was some real crap coming out of the Big 3.

Many of the others just repeat the crap they read in their bible, Consumer Reports, which never met a Japanese import they didn't like.

It should be interesting to see how the ratings are on Toyota models after all these issues and recalls.

[ITSA426]

It's not a level playing field for the US manufacturers.  Asian cars are/were heavily subsidized by their governments for sales abroad, particularly into the US.  US manufacturers face heavy tariffs trying to sell in those markets.  It's at least as much about trade policy as quality.  It's not really a free market economy.  Additionally the US manufacturers are using offshore vendors.  How long has it been since a car was 100% American content?  Global economy -  now everyone's after your dollar.

[Mike DC]

 


The entire worldwide automobile industry has jumped the shark. 



   

[Ghoste]

   You may very well be right.

[Brock Samson]

 Production capacity has surpassed demand except in some distant markets...

[Cooter]

When a Toyota Supra, with an inline 6 cyl. sells for Less money than an "American" Dodge Viper and with a few bolt on mods can produce a staggering amount of HP and Torque, Why would I want to spend my money on an "American" car? We're Talking 1000 HP daily driven....

You know how much a Daily driven, Turbo'd Dodge GTS-R, "Hennessey" , Viper costs that will make that kind of power? I bet there's about a $40K difference in price tag...Yes, the Toyota Supra is an expensive car, but compared the it's "Equal" "American" car, it is considered "Cheap"...Look at  the new Dodge Challengers, (soley because A BUNCH of people had to be the first on their blocks with one), will now cost the average "Car guy" Sometimes triple what it was supposed to sell for....You modify that Challenger to the point oif 1000 HP and I can bet the stock IRS rear won't live for long on the strip, like the toyota does.....Simple...Make better cars, Cheaper, and more power with simple bolt ons....People will come in droves....

[NHCharger]

My 01 S-10 pick up with 131k miles puked a transmission last year, just dropped it off at the shop to get fixed last weekend. Today at work my 00 Chevy 3500 van with 135k miles started having transmission problems ,so I'm not real happy with the domestics at this moment.

[Smokey Bear]

Many of the others just repeat the crap they read in their bible, Consumer Reports, which never met a Japanese import they didn't like.

You are either insulting the thousands and thousands of AMERICAN car buyers who have personally contributed to this data or insinuating that CR just makes it all up.

A. I don't think you are in any position to tell thousands of car owners that their opinions about their cars is wrong.
B. You don't have shred of proof that there is some CR conspiracy to unfairly promote imports.

The ratings in CR are deserved and hopefully it will eventually lead the big 3 to get their act together. I want a quality Dodge again and if it's painful to talk about how comparatively CRAPPY they have been/are, SO BE IT. It's the best medicine. Of course, we could have it your way and just pretend everything is ok and ignore the data, but really that's what the experts say is a part of what lead the American car industry to this point in the first place. The big three are improving their products and I believe that objective analysis and data like what is published in CR has contributed to that. A good prolonged bashing is what Detroit has needed for a long time. Even the big 3 have admitted that they needed a good hard slap to get them to drop their arrogant facade and pay attention to their comparative lack of quality!

For anyone who has paid attention to CR data over the years you have watched as Mercedes, one of the all stars of years past has fallen to the bottom. I'm looking forward to Chrysler doing to opposite over the coming years, and my input plus that of thousands of other AMERICANS are either going to make that happen or drive Chrysler out of business. Whatever the case may be, GOOD! Bash way.

It should be interesting to see how the ratings are on Toyota models after all these issues and recalls.

Toyota is going to be judged by their owners and will get the what they deserve. The difference I see is that Toyota, while initially reluctant to fess up, at least has not lied and deceived to the same level as Chrysler which has disenfranchised so many Mopar faithful. Time, and how Toyota continues to handle their problems will tell. 

[Khyron]

You are either insulting the thousands and thousands of AMERICAN car buyers who have personally contributed to this data or insinuating that CR just makes it all up.

ohhhhh someone has stock in CR

[Mike DC]

                        

When our Chargers were new, average people only expected cars to reliably last for 50,000 miles.  (That's circling the equator of the planet twice.)  The average owner kept the car for 3-5 years at most.  A first-year schoolteacher salary would pay for a brand new car on a regular basis.  Repairs cost very little in the big picture, especially smaller non-critical things that could be done by any halfway competent individual in his driveway.        





Look at us now.  Decent new cars cost a year's pay.  We expect them to last 8 times around the earth with virually nothing but oil changes & tires.  Fixing a minor accessory takes a degree in computers and costs $1000 or more.  





Where does it end?  

Will cars eventually cost 3x the average yearly income of a family of 4, cost $14,000 to fix a broken maplight, and have to last for 1,000,000 miles to keep from disappointing the customer?    

Does this path of perpetually ratcheting-up our demands on cars make any sense?
 

[1969chargerrtse]

What did a average size house cost in 1969 when an average Charger was about 3,200.00ish.  Hows does that compare to house vs car cost today?  I thought you could get some pretty good cars at a decent price today?
Bottom line, I hear Ford is doing great,  and GM has some great stuff out there, sorry I'm not up on Chrysler though I think the Challenger was done very well and haven't heard any quality complaints.

[Cooter]

                       

When our Chargers were new, average people only expected cars to reliably last for 50,000 miles.  (That's circling the equator of the planet twice.)  The average owner kept the car for 3-5 years at most.  A first-year schoolteacher salary would pay for a brand new car on a regular basis.  Repairs cost very little in the big picture, especially smaller non-critical things that could be done by any halfway competent individual in his driveway.        





Look at us now.  Decent new cars cost a year's pay.  We expect them to last 8 times around the earth with virually nothing but oil changes & tires.  Fixing a minor accessory takes a degree in computers and costs $1000 or more.  





Where does it end?  

Will cars eventually cost 3x the average yearly income of a family of 4, cost $14,000 to fix a broken maplight, and have to last for 1,000,000 miles to keep from disappointing the customer?    

Does this path of perpetually ratcheting-up our demands on cars make any sense?
 

Coming from one that repairs the cars/trucks these peoples vehicles, I totally agree with you...People expect the vehicles to last way past their "Experation" date...We have the tech. right now to build a car that never breaks/wears out..But, that wouldn't work for the big 3 as they'd never sell another one that way...

[Tilar]

We have the tech. right now to build a car that never breaks/wears out..But, that wouldn't work for the big 3 as they'd never sell another one that way...

I'm the type of person that would want to build that car that never breaks or wears out. Then I'd sell everybody and their dog one at an inflated price, and they would buy it because they'd know it was the last one they'd have to buy. Then I'd take my toys and go home and relax while everyone else is scrambling trying to figure out what to do next.   

[Blakcharger440]

Ummm....I wouldnt blame all of this mess on the American consumer. The corporate greed which this country is based on would continue to want and inflate the prices of vehicles no matter what the average income of the the american worker and have done so for years.
Now that the big 3 got themselves into a pickle by increasing the cost of their vehicles to where the average guy cant  afford them is just irony. They complain that nobody is buying their high priced vehicles while not even considering that their crap is over priced.
The trend for corporate greed has been to increase the prices of goods and services but at the same time strive
to give the consumer less of said product or even less quality.

The consumer demands more because they are paying over inflated prices while wages have been decreasing or stagnate for the average Joe for years.

[nh_mopar_fan]

Many of the others just repeat the crap they read in their bible, Consumer Reports, which never met a Japanese import they didn't like.

You are either insulting the thousands and thousands of AMERICAN car buyers who have personally contributed to this data or insinuating that CR just makes it all up.

A. I don't think you are in any position to tell thousands of car owners that their opinions about their cars is wrong.
B. You don't have shred of proof that there is some CR conspiracy to unfairly promote imports.

The ratings in CR are deserved and hopefully it will eventually lead the big 3 to get their act together. I want a quality Dodge again and if it's painful to talk about how comparatively CRAPPY they have been/are, SO BE IT. It's the best medicine. Of course, we could have it your way and just pretend everything is ok and ignore the data, but really that's what the experts say is a part of what lead the American car industry to this point in the first place. The big three are improving their products and I believe that objective analysis and data like what is published in CR has contributed to that. A good prolonged bashing is what Detroit has needed for a long time. Even the big 3 have admitted that they needed a good hard slap to get them to drop their arrogant facade and pay attention to their comparative lack of quality!

For anyone who has paid attention to CR data over the years you have watched as Mercedes, one of the all stars of years past has fallen to the bottom. I'm looking forward to Chrysler doing to opposite over the coming years, and my input plus that of thousands of other AMERICANS are either going to make that happen or drive Chrysler out of business. Whatever the case may be, GOOD! Bash way.

It should be interesting to see how the ratings are on Toyota models after all these issues and recalls.

Toyota is going to be judged by their owners and will get the what they deserve. The difference I see is that Toyota, while initially reluctant to fess up, at least has not lied and deceived to the same level as Chrysler which has disenfranchised so many Mopar faithful. Time, and how Toyota continues to handle their problems will tell.  

I'm saying that their ratings are COMPLETELY subjective.  What's the response rate from their readers? Do you know?
What's a serious problem? Who knows. CR doesn't define it. To one person, serious could be a tranny going south, to another it might be a headlight switch.

There are plenty of examples of how their ratings make no sense.  

They rate models which are manufacturered on the same line by the same workers using the same parts differently. How is that possible? How does a Mazda Navajo get rated differently than a Ford Explorer when the only difference is the badge on the tailgate?

Want more?

http://www.autospies.com/news/Should-You-Trust-Consumer-Reports-18905/

Here's a great one:

http://forums.motortrend.com/70/6774067/the-general-forum/historical-deception-at-consumer-reports-a-long-re/index.html

"Measurements on our digital tape recorder indicated that the Lincoln was the quietest car in this group. [but] the Lexus and Infiniti seemed quieter."

WHAT? Seemed quieter? Even with the REAL evidence to the contrary they can't help themselves from making a completely subjective comment. Does that sound unbaised to you?

[Mike DC]

             

Consumer Reports has data worth listening to in general, but I agree that they have a clear anti-Detroit bias when it comes to cars. 


My father hasn't bought an American car in 20+ years in favor of Japanese stuff.  But even he agrees with me that CR has some bias against Detroit.     

[Big Sugar]

             

Consumer Reports has data worth listening to in general, but I agree that they have a clear anti-Detroit bias when it comes to cars. 


My father hasn't bought an American car in 20+ years in favor of Japanese stuff.  But even he agrees with me that CR has some bias against Detroit.     

I would agree with you that CR has some WoNky ratings system its seems to contradict itself in same platform comparisons, I think sometimes the overall Volume of units sold can hurt the products ratings Simply because your percentage of nagging vehicle problems goes up with the number of units sold.
Perfect example is the Ford /Mazda shared models and the Pontiac/Toyota shared models. The domestic badged models easily outsold the import badged units maybe 3:1 (or better in fords case)
The Ford buyer is in a HUGE Pool of other Ford buyers , the Ford brand name has a bit of a dismal quality reputation so even though your Driving a MAZDA the FORD name knocks it down a notch, even in the CR reviews.
Where as the Import badged model  gets a better review with less units being sold and less bad overall customer complains over the whole productline.

The funny thing . FOR SO LONG the BIG 3 couldn't figure out how to make a small cars equal to the imports, they just Jumped into bed with them and rebadged the imported  product with their name to try too fool the ignorant Americans. How many American Branded Cars do you know that were actually a Japaneese built car ?
More than 10....20 ??

Geeze I wonder if this went the other way Round, Were the Japs and Koreans selling American Fords and GM's under a Japaneese/Korean name.   Mmmmm

SMOKEY BEAR is absolutly right, You need to Bash the manufactuers to inprove their product. For far  too
long the BIG 3 rode the Ignorant Patriotic North American consumer for all it was worth. Always turning a Blind eye to what was really unfolding, Their lack of forward, unbiased, competative thinking. Put them where they are today.
Its kind of sad really because for the last decade the Big 3 have really put some sound Cars on the map, The quality was competative the design was fresh and competative, Performance was on par for the market.

I don't know about you But I think the next ten years is gonna be real fun to watch.


Ron

[Mike DC]

Its kind of sad really because for the last decade the Big 3 have really put some sound Cars on the map, The quality was competative the design was fresh and competative, Performance was on par for the market.

Detroit has been saying "we've finally done it this time" like Microsoft has been saying they've finally got their new operating system fully debugged this time.  



In the 1980s Detroit was admitting that they had been lagging in quality compared to Japan, but now they were on the ball and we should give them another chance.  

In the 1990s Detroit was admitting they had still been lagging in the 1980s but they said now they were doing it right.  

Now Detroit is saying it again.  



I believe they really are closer than ever but they've cried wolf too many times on this.  I think most of the American public honestly wanted to buy the patriotic domestic product when Japan first began denting Detroit's business decades ago.  But the public got sick of giving them more chances and getting screwed over & over again.    

[stripedelete]

   


[/quote]

I don't know about you But I think the next ten years is gonna be real fun to watch.


Ron

[/quote]

[John_Kunkel]

The only reason the American manufacturers have attained the level of quality and reliability they now have is because they were shamed into it by the Japanese.

[Smokey Bear]

I'm saying that their ratings are COMPLETELY subjective.  What's the response rate from their readers? Do you know?

Of course there is going to be subjectivity when you ask people's opinions of their cars and compile the data. It's not a perfect system and there will never be one, but I'd be way more inclined to base my purchase on the opinions of people who actually bought the cars rather than some desk jockey at a magazine. When it comes to CR, forget about the crap written by the writers. That IS full of purely subjective bullshit. Look at the compiled data on the reliability charts. This is what comes from the car owners and their opinions and it can't be denied.

What does response rate have to do with it? Are you trying to say that somehow buyers of American cars are just way more finicky and vocal about their cars than imports owners, therefore unbalancing the data? Or is it that the pool of data is just too small to be reliable? There's a lot of information on how CR gathers this data if just you'd take time to look for it. It's readily available.

What's a serious problem? Who knows. CR doesn't define it. To one person, serious could be a tranny going south, to another it might be a headlight switch.

Again, I suggest a little research. There is plenty of information available on CR data sources and processes. Have you ever filled out a CR report? Do you know what's in them, or how in depth they are? I have. Several times. Your questions indicate that you have not formed your opinion of CR on any type of real analysis, research or understanding of the process.

I can't and don't intend to defend CR for every report ever made. No institution in the world is perfect or is that defensible. I also don't expect that I will be able to convince every proud American that their country's cars don't hold up to other makes. But then again, I don't need to: The American car manufacturers themselves have already fessed to it (some more than others).

Lastly, I'd argue that the people who are willing to understand and analyze the facts and swallow the hard truth about the American car industry are much more likely to end up saving it than the people who continue to wave their flags and shout "Buy American!", but if that's what makes you happy, please, carry on.

The only reason the American manufacturers have attained the level of quality and reliability they now have is because they were shamed into it by the Japanese.

and the consumers. Let's hope the trend continues.

[nh_mopar_fan]

I think you're a little confused. No where did I say "Buy American".

I'm the guy that started the "Chrysler is dead" thread. Go find it if you want. I'm hardly blind to the shortcomings of the Big 3.

But, I'm also not going to stroke Toyota, especially with all the latest issues.

Try visiting the CNN website and look at the comments on the recall stories. There's an endless supply of Toyota buttswabs who go as far as to accuse the US government of inventing all these recall issues as party of some grand conspiracy.

Some of these owners will no doubt fill out a CR survey. How much weight do you want to put in their opinion?