440 engine build...comments?

[72PlymRoadrunner440]

Hey guys I'm thinking about building a 440 soon. Along with a 72 roadrunner. so here's my plan/idea on the engine.

-1972 RR 440 stock block,bore,stroke, stock hardware, etc
-HV oil pump
-stock pan/pickup
-stock pistons/ compression ratio(est 8.2:1)
-voodoo .513/.533 Cam
-1972 RR 906 Heads (stock valves, maybe better springs than stock etc.)
-stock Rocker arms
-Edelbrock performer rpm intake
-850 DP Holley
-Headers

Just basically a stock engine with some stuff to waken it up. Not looking for a strip car. just a street car with a 4 speed. 8 3/4 3.91 sure grip. Want to keep it low CR so i can put 87 octane in it. Just kind of wondering what you guys/experts think of my idea. I'm still young but I'm looking for 400 hp approx. thinking a stock 290 hp 440 with some performace parts 400 isn't too hard. But may be a bit difficult because of the low compression. I'm just building a mean sounding fast fun street car. Let Me Know What You Guys Think!

[mally69]

that cam i dont think is gonna work with your stock valve train i would say your gonne need adjustable rockers, also the stock springs gotta go with that cam also. with that much lift your stock springs are gonna bind, and you'll want to get better locks and retainers also. i would go with a 700-750 cfm carb 850 is a tad big.

If you want a reliable engine its simply gonna have to be overhauled to be right just my  new bearing's, pistons,cam/lifters new seals, gaskets etc....

[Sublime/Sixpack]

I understand your reasoning for the low compression but I'd atleast shoot for 9to1 compression, and I'd also go with a milder cam too.

[72PlymRoadrunner440]

Alright i understand.
I was just looking for a really mean sounding cam and i was thinking of stiffer springs as well.
But my pops had a 440 with a big cam around about that size with stock rocker arms and it ran nice!
Alright so a smaller carb. and i was also thinking a .488/.491 cam would that be better?
i just want it to sound radical. you know what i mean?

[mally69]

what the duration of that cam/and dur @ .050? You most def want to get a matched set of springs for your cam whatever it is, its not always the stiffness its the coil bind that will get you.  with stock rockers you dont want to go over .500 lift, so the lift would be ok with that cam but the duration has alot to do with your rpm range, if your using performer rpm you want your cam to be coming in at about the same rpm as your intake manifold. Its all about matched parts working together. the 3.91 gears is a plus.

[mally69]

this this it?
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/CCA-CL21-224-4/

Looks like it should be a decent cam if this is it.    Ron is way better at this game that i am, i hope he chimes in here   

[firefighter3931]

With that lower compression you don't want too much cam or it will be a slug....you won't be happy. 

I would use the VooDoo 302 cam with the matching springs. Stock rocker arms are fine with this stick as well. 

The rest of the combo looks fine....750 DP'er carb is plenty. 



Ron

[72PlymRoadrunner440]

That's the one!
i was thinking of getting the kit.
cam and lifters, timing chain, springs, etc
but this cam isn't that radical i wish i could hear one at idle
But what if i upgraded the valve train for the .513/.533. obviously this cam is a bit more radical.
I'm just looking for that nice lopey choppy idle.
should i do Double springs for the .513/.533.
that would help out the valve train a bit.
But a 72 440 should only see 5,500 rpm
id push it to 6k but i think that's pushing it
The car wont be driven daily or in the rain or snow or salt.
Any help would be nice.
The car is a budget build not really looking to spend tons of money
just doing hot rodding as my dad did it in the past

[72PlymRoadrunner440]

heres cam specs. so help me out cause Id like to use this cam or about the same size. i want good power and a mean sound

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/LUN-60304/

[mally69]

this cam is to big unless you got different pistons, more compression, and better flowing heads, adjustable valve train, higher stall convertor etc. and if your planning on using stock 906 heads you have to have hardened valve seats in order to run unleaded gas if not the valves will pound the factory cast seat out to nothing, i had this happen to me last year with a set of 906's.

[firefighter3931]

this cam is to big unless you got different pistons, more compression, and better flowing heads, adjustable valve train, higher stall convertor etc. and if your planning on using stock 906 heads you have to have hardened valve seats in order to run unleaded gas if not the valves will pound the factory cast seat out to nothing, i had this happen to me last year with a set of 906's.

Well said ! 

Don't get hung up on the sound....too much cam will disappoint you. The last thing you want is to get spanked by a Yugo ! 

Throw a set of dynomax Ultraflow mufflers on it...that will get peoples attention. 


Ron

[72PlymRoadrunner440]

See the reason im pushing this cam is because Me and my dad build engines and cars ect ect. but im young but we just built a 454. its a gen IV or V block out of a truck. its a stock bottom end besides the crank being cut .040 under. its dead stock. piston just have 2 valve releifs and dead stock heads. just rebuilt. it has the norm. Hv oil pump, stock pan, pick up, ect. with 1.8 roller rockers headers tunnel ram and 2 650s. yes too much carb but it runs like an animal. the cam is a .540 .540 and the car moves and its in a 3400lbs cougar. I'm looking to build a mopar version of his big block. hes only got 8.2 to 1 stock CR. runs off of 87 octane and the car runs and sounds amazing through flowmasters. We've had 0 problems with running the engine with that much cam and that much carburation.
thanks not meaning to fight anyone or sound new to the muscle car bit but im only 17 and ive been doing it for a while just dont have full expierence on different engine combos. my dads been doing it for 30 years

[mally69]

well all i can say is suppose you put your adj valvetrain in and you put this cam in and drive it, sure its gonna run good, but it would run way better if things are matched correctly and what we are trying to do is steer you in the right direction towards making it runs its best for what you have. and with the 906 heads yea they flow good compared to other stock mopar heads BUT with that big of cam your not going to be getting the full benefit of the cam becuase the heads dont flow well enough.

[firefighter3931]

Don't look at the gross lift....pay attention to the duration @.050 valve lift. This is what defines the cam's powerband to a large extent and is critical. A 234@.050 cam won't start making any descent power until 3500 in a smog 440. You want to shift at 5500 max so now you're left with a real narrow powerband, poor idle quality and shit for street manners. You're about to make the same mistake that every rookie has made...overcamming. 

Any cam with more than .510 valvelift requires head modifications. The retainer to guide clearance will be insufficient with that cam so you need to modify the heads or you'll waste the engine and make a huge mess. If you throw that cam in there even with the required Head mods....guaranteed you'll be back asking why my 440 can't spin the tires and feels like a slug.

Trust me, i made the same mistake you did when i was your age. Unfortunately i had to learn the hard way and didn't have access to this valuable resource we call the internet. 



Ron

[idahogrumpy]

Ron, I've had the same discussion with my son several times.  They just gotta learn for them selves. 
I have been doing this stuff for about 35 years and have learned so much from the guys here over the last five years it isn't funny. 
Good luck with your build...  72plymroadrunner440
Maybe if you listen you can teach your ol' man something. 
  Grumpy

[72PlymRoadrunner440]

well thanks for everyones help. but my dads owned over 180 cars from 70 challengers rts to 71 superbees to caddilacs to chevelles buicks anything so my old man knows just as much as some of you guys and with us its what we can AFFORD to do. its not all about building a crazy 600 hp big block its about building a powerful cheap big block with what you have. My dads been doing it for 30 years aswell and im just figuring id go online and see what people think but alright. if all you guys want to do is bash my dad thats fine. i understand what you are trying to say im just saying my dad built the same kind of engine and everyone says it wont be a good engine...but i have my dad and thats all i need thanks anyways

[mally69]

well thanks for everyones help. but my dads owned over 180 cars from 70 challengers rts to 71 superbees to caddilacs to chevelles buicks anything so my old man knows just as much as some of you guys and with us its what we can AFFORD to do. its not all about building a crazy 600 hp big block its about building a powerful cheap big block with what you have. My dads been doing it for 30 years aswell and im just figuring id go online and see what people think but alright. if all you guys want to do is bash my dad thats fine. i understand what you are trying to say im just saying my dad built the same kind of engine and everyone says it wont be a good engine...but i have my dad and thats all i need thanks anyways

no reason to be a smart ass, we arent bashing anyone. we are telling you becuase these guys know mopar engines obviously way better than your dad does becuase this is all we build on this site, its plain and simple these guys here know exactly what works and what doesn't if you cannot except that then build your engine the way you want and when it comes apart after a ( short while ) we will still be here to tell you how to make it right. its much cheaper to do it right the first time not the second. its a simple proven fact that the stock style stamped rockers start over lapping the valve tip with anyting over .510 lift.    like i said before we are giving you the advise to make your engine RUN ITS BEST WITH WHAT YOU HAVE . Goodluck  

[Sublime/Sixpack]

You'll be sorry if you over cam the engine, like allready stated it'll be a slug! Live and learn.

[Scaregrabber]

Big block Chevies are different than Big block Dodges. Big Block chevies have pretty good size head ports and the bigger cam you put in them the faster you go.
Big Block Dodges will run hard on the street but you have to be more cautious when picking a cam for them with stock heads. Your stock pistons that are rated at 8-1 are probably more like 7.2-1 when measured. If you want an efficient engine upping the compression ratio is almost first on the list.

Sheldon

[Steve P.]

Well put guys. He's going to do whatever he thinks is right, but if he's smart he'll call any of the cam manufacturers and ask their professional opinion as he did here and find out everyone here was right.

Nobody here wants to pick on anyone. Especially a young gun. The guys here have been building MOPAR engines for many years and have PROVEN DYNO numbers to show their worth. You can go to the PROVEN DYNO area here and see exactly what many here have built.

The only thing wrong with learning the hard way is losing interest due to failures. All we're trying to do here is help you succeed with your goal the first time and the much easier way. Take it or leave it. You asked for advise and you got it. There is no need to chew anyone's azz here. Especially when they are only trying to help you..

[Cooter]

One word of caution here on those "Voo doo" Cams...I bought that EXACT cam and a friend told mne to check the lift just to be safe as he had one that spec'd out WAY over what it was "Supposed" to be and When I checked it, instead of it being .533 lift, it was like .660 lift...Base circle, then total lift subtract, then times by 1.5 rocker arm ratio...Might have just been a "Fluke", but I sent mine back and bought a Comp and it checked dead on...

[SeattleCharger]

the smaller cam with the right exhaust can sound meaner than a big cam with lamer exhaust. the mufflers make a big diff. on sound.  get the cam that drives the way you want, then tweak sound with your choice of exhaust,  also too big a carb will drive off line like crap and will only run ok after high rpm's.  which isn't for most of street driving,  I don't know,  my half an amatuer's 

[pettybird]

well thanks for everyones help. but my dads owned over 180 cars from 70 challengers rts to 71 superbees to caddilacs to chevelles buicks anything so my old man knows just as much as some of you guys and with us its what we can AFFORD to do. its not all about building a crazy 600 hp big block its about building a powerful cheap big block with what you have. My dads been doing it for 30 years aswell and im just figuring id go online and see what people think but alright. if all you guys want to do is bash my dad thats fine. i understand what you are trying to say im just saying my dad built the same kind of engine and everyone says it wont be a good engine...but i have my dad and thats all i need thanks anyways

it costs the same to buy the right cam as it does the wrong one...  if you want a cheap, cool sounding cam get this one:  http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SUM-K6401/

no, it doesn't look cool on paper but it makes good noise and you'll be happier with it.