69 Charger survivor on ebay bringing good money. It's baaaack.

[Ghoste]

    Personally I like the color too. 

[LoneStar Mopar]

69*F5*SE, Thanks for giving me your take on it. I know basically what I am looking for and I think a 383 is plenty for me. I would definately take a 440 if the price is right; or even a very clean original 318 car. Looking at what is out there for the money I think a nice 383 car is what I will eventually get. I would think it get respect in the Mopar world and not be a car people roll their eyes at.

All of my classic Chevy vehicles (I know, but I am far more than a bow tie guy wanting a Mopar simply for prestige) have big blocks. They are 396 and 402 big blocks not 427 or 454's, but that is fine by me. They are still big blocks in both sound, power, and wow factor with most people.

[Troy]

The 383 2bbl was a "step up" from the "base" model with the torque of a big block. The 383 4bbl in the Charger was slightly less powerful than the RR and Super Bee - although the Charger weighed a good bit more as well. All Chargers were premium priced so there's not much difference other than engine size and the suspension and brakes that came with the engine choice (excluding SE items). The 318 in my 68 in high school seemed plenty powerful and the 383 would have been a marked improvement I'm sure. I've ridden in a 383 4bbl Charger and it felt pretty strong. People always want the "top dog" though and since a 440 will drop right in where a 383 once was it's a very popular and common swap (almost 60 ci, 40 hp, and 55 ft/lbs of torque instantly). The 383 will rev higher though and is nearly as easy to "upgrade" as a 440 so not everyone is anxious to switch.

There were more 383 cars than "base" 318 and slant six cars in 1969 (35k vs 31k). There were more 440 R/Ts than 383 4bbl cars too (18k vs 17k). However, as we've covered before, rarity doesn't always equate to desirable. Options do as much (or more) to increase value as condition - especially when it comes to the drive train.

Man, I must type slow.

Troy

[Ghoste]

Pointing out that 440's outnumbered 383's in the Charger brings up another point in your post that I would take issue with in this particular case Troy.  The 383 was step up from the baseengine not the base model.  It was still in the base model whereas the 440 existed in the step up from the base model (now I'm starting to confuse myself, what the Hell was my point again?). 
It might be more accurate to say that more people opted for the step up engine in the base model than the step up engine in the RT model (which would be the Hemi).  The 440 as the standard engine in the step up model is outnumbered by the stnadard engine in the base model.
(I think I better quit)

[69*F5*SE]

I read it twice so I get what you mean. I think.   

[Ghoste]

Okay, you can explain it to me then.


Oh, maybe how about this- by ordering the optional four barrel engine in the base model Charger you were able to make it a musclecar. 

[69*F5*SE]

 

[LoneStar Mopar]

So what were the model ranges: base, RT, SE, and RT/SE? And could a 383 car be a RT, SE, or RT/SE? Also if a car was a 440 or 426 it could not be a base model car? Sorry for all the questions, and sorry I lead this thread off track.

[Ghoste]

SE wasn't a model, it was trim package in 69.  You had the base Charger, the RT, and then aero cars which were coded "XX" and in the fsm called "fast tops".
And correct, you could not order the 440 or the Hemi in the base model. 

[694spdRT]

It must be different now because most people don't even know what engine is in their car. They buy whatever is on the lot and is priced right. Let's face it, most of these cars were really just transportation for people back then.

I would guess that most average dealers floorplanned 318-383 cars of all models and maybe kept 1 or 2 440 cars around or ordered stuff out for people. My dad said 440 and Hemi cars on the lot were pretty rare compared to 383's unless you got to the "big" dealers and the 383's still outnumbered everything else. Probably similar the SRT8's compared to SE,SXT, and R/T stuff today.

[LoneStar Mopar]

Thanks for the information everyone!!

[Troy]

Ok, when I say base I guess I should say "standard" (ie - not optional). So for a "standard" Charger, the "standard" engine was the 318. The slant six, 383 2bbl, 383 4bbl, 440, and 426 Hemi were optional. If you wanted a Hemi or 440 you had to also purchase the R/T performance package and, conversely, purchasing an R/T/500/Daytona required a mandatory engine upgrade. I think it is fair to compare Chargers by engine because there is no overlap. You could get a 383 without also purchasing the R/T package which probably put the car into a price range that fit the most people. Walk into a dealer these days and try to buy the most stripped down (cheapest) car that they advertise. They likely won't have one on the lot since the percentages of fully loaded and stripped down cars are small compared to the number of cars with some/several options. Dealers may have also found that the additional torque of the 383 helped to sell the cars on test drives. That's just a guess though.

Troy

[Ghoste]

Ah, but purchasing the RT "package" really meant you were buying a higher priced "model", therefore the "required" engine upgrade was actually standard in the case of the 440. 

(okay, that time I was just trying to be an ass  )

[hemigeno]

OK, I'll really muddy the waters here then...

Based on the Broadcast Sheets that I've seen, 383-4 Chargers were actually equipped with the 335 horse engine - same as the 'Runners and SuperBees.  Go figure.  The Dealer Data Book does say it's the 330hp version, but the Broadcast Sheet codes would overrule.

Also, it definitely appears that it was possible to order up a base model (XP) Charger with a 426 Hemi.  I've found multiple factory documents from '69 that reference this possibility, not the least of which is the 1969 Charger Order Form.  Strange, but true...

[PocketThunder]

OK, I'll really muddy the waters here then...

Based on the Broadcast Sheets that I've seen, 383-4 Chargers were actually equipped with the 335 horse engine - same as the 'Runners and SuperBees.  Go figure.  The Dealer Data Book does say it's the 330hp version, but the Broadcast Sheet codes would overrule.

Also, it definitely appears that it was possible to order up a base model (XP) Charger with a 426 Hemi.  I've found multiple factory documents from '69 that reference this possibility, not the least of which is the 1969 Charger Order Form.  Strange, but true...

My engine builder, (chevy guy), claims to me that his Dad ordered a '68 Charger with a 383 and R/T suspension.  is that possible?

[Ghoste]

Gene, that was why I was asking if he had the windage tray in his engine.  This topic has come up before and I guess I'm still waiting to be convinced either way.  I understand what you're saying about the broadcast sheets but why the two camshafts?
As for the XP getting ordered with the Hemi... show me.  Just one and not that press photo car but a real exisiting one that can be proven. 
(asking here but isn't also indicated somewhere in early documents that the Hemi was to be the standard engine in the 500's?).
My last comment about the RT suspension ordered on the base model, yes it was pretty much a do-able thing with the trailer towing package.

[hemigeno]

Oh, I won't argue that non-R/T Hemicars are plentiful, and I don't know if there is another example besides the press release car.  I'll send you something here in a minute that might change your mind.

(asking here but isn't also indicated somewhere in early documents that the Hemi was to be the standard engine in the 500's?).

Yep, you're exactly right.  Shortly afterwards, that was changed as you already know.

My last comment about the RT suspension ordered on the base model, yes it was pretty much a do-able thing with the trailer towing package.

I agree with Ghoste that it was a do-able thing, but I don't know if the A35 Trailer Tow package was the triggering factor.  It takes a while to sift through and find out what they intended, but the engineering paperwork shows that Sales Code A35 only required the S13 Heavy-Duty Suspension, which is what the Base Chargers came with in the first place (unless the S17 Reduced Rate suspension was ordered).  The sales order form and the confidential price bulletin both show that you could upgrade to firm-feel shocks for just a few dollars more, but no specific mention is made of how to upgrade a 383 car to the S15 Police Handling Package (i.e. Hemi suspension).  I did find an obscure reference to S15 being available on 383-2 and 383-4 Chargers, but the Qualifications only say "Limited Option".  What that means, I dunno - apart from the fact that it was apparently available if you knew Bob Rodger's mother's maiden name.

[Ghoste]

The one part I haven't been able to verify has been the Hemi leaf springs.  Is that part of S15?  I get that you sort of just said that but to be specific you said the police handling package was the Hemi suspension but so many times I seem to run into police handling packages that are heavier shocks and hopefully heavier springs as well but in this case, are we talkling about those springs?
(geezus I'm having a hard time explaining myself today  )

[hemigeno]

After digging a little further into the issue, it gets even more muddy...   


225/318/383-2/383-4 Chargers got 2539211 springs on both sides as part of the Sales Code S13 (HD Suspension) package which was standard equipment on those cars.

S15 (we'll call it XHD Suspension rather than Hemi Suspension) actually has two different "grades":

318-2 and 383-2 have an S15 Sales Code package that gets 2539795 springs on both sides.
383-4 (that are coded for XHD Suspension) and all 426/440 cars get 2539795 & -965 springs with the same S15 Sales Code.  So to answer your question about whether "Hemi" springs are part of the S15 suspension package, the answer is "maybe"    


As far as torsion bars go, here's what the charts say:

225/318/383-2/383-4 cars with the S13 (HD Suspension, standard equipment) Sales Code were given 1857778-9 torsion bars.

All but the 225 Slant Six Chargers were equipped with 1857780-1 XHD Suspension bars when coded with S15, and 426/440 cars obviously received XHD torsion bars as standard equipment.

Shock absorbers for 225/318/383-2/383-4 Chargers were standard-duty (depends on when the car was built as to what the part numbers would be on the front & rear), but were upgraded to HD or XHD shocks if either the S15 (XHD Suspension which got HD shocks front & rear with that package) or S25 (HD Shocks front & rear) or S28 (HD front shocks, XHD rear shocks) were coded/purchased.

I won't even get into the S17 Reduced Rate suspension options, as that's yet another layer to confuse things.

Clear as mud, right?

[69 OUR/TEA]

Ok, when I say base I guess I should say "standard" (ie - not optional). So for a "standard" Charger, the "standard" engine was the 318. The slant six, 383 2bbl, 383 4bbl, 440, and 426 Hemi were optional. If you wanted a Hemi or 440 you had to also purchase the R/T performance package and, conversely, purchasing an R/T/500/Daytona required a mandatory engine upgrade. I think it is fair to compare Chargers by engine because there is no overlap. You could get a 383 without also purchasing the R/T package which probably put the car into a price range that fit the most people. Walk into a dealer these days and try to buy the most stripped down (cheapest) car that they advertise. They likely won't have one on the lot since the percentages of fully loaded and stripped down cars are small compared to the number of cars with some/several options. Dealers may have also found that the additional torque of the 383 helped to sell the cars on test drives. That's just a guess though.

Troy

 Same thing going on now,most of the new Challengers you see on the lots are "J" package cars which is(leather,heated seat+mirrors,sound group radio,satellite @$1,900 cost),and usually has also  20'' chrome wheels,sunroof,etc nearing the 37-39K MSRP.Base price on a R/T Challenegr is $30,230.(during EPP you could have had one for 27K)I have never seen one down in that range.
I personally wanted a "F" package which is cloth,and for options wanted six speed,sunroof,20'' wheels.Really wanted to have the sound group radio for the amp,6 disc,six boston acoustic speakers,and satellite but usually never found in an F package car as that option is 995.00 for the radio and 195.00 for the sat.So for 700.00 more you would have the leather and etc.
Luckily found mine this way(even with the radio),and bought it.Have seen a thread over on the new Chally forums about how come they can't find an "F"package with six speed?They should start throwing lower optioned cars out there for the lots,maybe that would spike sales,although at this moment there are very limited dealers with Challys from the shutdown.Have seen also on the new Chally forums that dealers are putting limited availability market adjustment increase prices on them .Anywhere from 2-6K over!!!!!!!That would be the day I pay sticker ,let alone over!!!!!! For this they should be shot.At least the dealer I bought mine from,what I think is a stand up dealer,just had a B5 blue R/T Classic come in,and sold it instantly,they sold it for sticker,not above.
Now for back in the day of our cars being new on the lot,if the dealer ordered some up for their lots,I thought they spread out the field of models,318's,383's,R/T's,autos and 4 speeds?And Hemi cars,loaded ones ,etc were ordered as they were higher price,they did'nt want to get stuck with them????I do not have the BS for my car so I will never know if it was a lot car or ordered,and all the options my car has ,it was probably up ther in price.

[Ghoste]

Some dealers would not order high performance cars as a matter of choice and many took cars from the sales bank somewhat haphazardly but most ordered cars for the lot based on what sort of things had been successful in the past and what they thought might be successful potentially.  Mr. Norm dealt almost exclusively in performance cars and he did okay.
And you are right, it's about the same today.  As much as we might think the dealer or mfg's are forcing us to buy a certain kind of vehicle, I have yet to drive pst a car lot and see anyone holding a gun to the consumers heads.  They build and stock what the majority seem to want.  It's a guessing game.

[69CoronetRT]

OK, I'll really muddy the waters here then...

Based on the Broadcast Sheets that I've seen, 383-4 Chargers were actually equipped with the 335 horse engine - same as the 'Runners and SuperBees.  Go figure.  The Dealer Data Book does say it's the 330hp version, but the Broadcast Sheet codes would overrule.

From what I've seen from BS

68 - No 335 horse engines in Chargers
69 - 335 horse engines in 4 speed Chargers without A/C. 330 horse engines in Automatics and four speeds with A/C
70 - All Chargers got 335 horse engines.

[hemigeno]

Thanks, Doug - you'd be a guy who would know for sure

[69CoronetRT]

Thanks, Doug - you'd be a guy who would know for sure

Only because I've paid attention to the smart guys like you.

[69_500]

Oh, I won't argue that non-R/T Hemicars are plentiful, and I don't know if there is another example besides the press release car.  I'll send you something here in a minute that might change your mind.

(asking here but isn't also indicated somewhere in early documents that the Hemi was to be the standard engine in the 500's?).

Yep, you're exactly right.  Shortly afterwards, that was changed as you already know.

My last comment about the RT suspension ordered on the base model, yes it was pretty much a do-able thing with the trailer towing package.

I agree with Ghoste that it was a do-able thing, but I don't know if the A35 Trailer Tow package was the triggering factor.  It takes a while to sift through and find out what they intended, but the engineering paperwork shows that Sales Code A35 only required the S13 Heavy-Duty Suspension, which is what the Base Chargers came with in the first place (unless the S17 Reduced Rate suspension was ordered).  The sales order form and the confidential price bulletin both show that you could upgrade to firm-feel shocks for just a few dollars more, but no specific mention is made of how to upgrade a 383 car to the S15 Police Handling Package (i.e. Hemi suspension).  I did find an obscure reference to S15 being available on 383-2 and 383-4 Chargers, but the Qualifications only say "Limited Option".  What that means, I dunno - apart from the fact that it was apparently available if you knew Bob Rodger's mother's maiden name.

Gene, I hadn't noticed anything about being able to buy a HEMI in a charger even without the R/T package. Do you suppose that is how they squeezed the HEMI 1970 charger 500 out? Being as the 500 wasn't a performance option that year.