Converting 400 to 512

[Challenger_7]

Sorry, Forgot to post the pictures. I hope they help. If not, I will go to the car soon and take some more.

[firefighter3931]

Thanks Ron for the details.

1. On the valve Job, if I use new stainless valves, will I need new seats to cope with the harder (stainless) valves?
2. Cam, ok noted
3. Manifold here are 2 pics. Hope they are sufficient
4. Axle ratio not known. I will try to measure it, but my mech believes it should be in the 3.23 range. Does this make sense?He also described it as the "Auto block" type, which as described by him, sort of locks the two wheels on take off for better performance. Does this also make sense and true??


Farouk

Farouk,

(1) As long as you stay with the stock exhaust valve size there will be no need for new seats in those heads.

(2) The hdp271 grind would be my choice now that i see you have AC, PB, and gears in the 3.23 range.

(3) The intake and exhaust manifolds should be replaced.....both are low compression (smog motor) pieces. Those log style exhaust manifolds are very restrictive and won't get the job done on a 451 stroker.

(4) The suregrip rear end is a good thing. See if you can get a difinative answer on the axle ratio.



Ron



Ps. One other thing worth noting ; the B&M flexplate you just ordered won't work with a 451 because the stroker kit will be internally balanced. You will need to get a new flexplate and harmonic balancer for the new engine combination. 

[Challenger_7]

Thanks Ron.

On the flexplate, it is for my other Challenger, not this one. But still you are saying I will need a new flexplate for the 451 kit. Understood, but which one?
But for the balancing issue, I had asked source440 if they can balance the crank, and they confirmed they will do at an additional cost. Will I still need anything on the balancer side than what they will offer, if I buy their kit?

[firefighter3931]

Farouk, i guess i'm confused here....you have more than one Challenger ? I just assumed you were talking about stroking the engine (400ci) that was having vibration issues. 

On the 440source rotating assembly : it will be internally balanced so you need a neutral balance harmonic balancer, and a neutral balance tq converter with the matching flexplate. Brandon @ 440source can supply you with these parts.



Ron

[Challenger_7]

Farouk, i guess i'm confused here....you have more than one Challenger ? I just assumed you were talking about stroking the engine (400ci) that was having vibration issues. 

Ron

Yes Ron I do, and I am sorry for the confusion. I assumed you were following, but with so many other members for you to contribute to, it is normal you lose track
My 3 sweet hearts are all 71 Challengers, photos below.
The red one is the one that is having a vibration problem. I decided to open up the engine and check it out too before putting on the flexplate, as I do not trust what the previous owner's mechanics have done to the car. I will report my findings soon in the "how to balance an engine" thread.
The white convirtible is the one I aim to stroke, and will also be receiving a ground up restoration soon. I am just waiting for all the parts to come from "yearone".
The third white one is an all 100% original R/T, still untouched and in excellent condition with the build sheet intact! I willbe giving it a paint job and cosmetical up lift, as need be, but after I am done with the first two
Hope you enjoy the photos
Farouk

[firefighter3931]

Nice cars Farouk !  71 is my favorite Challenger, especially the R/T's 



Ron

[Challenger340]

Nice Cars Farouk !

[mikepmcs]

even though they are all the same year, i really like the looks of that red one.  At least if i ever get one, i know what year to look for!!!

v/r
Mike

[Challenger_7]

Thank you guys for the compliment. Yes 71 is my favourite too and that is why I couldn't help buying them Eventually, and for the right price, I will let go of the red one as originally per the vin number, it was sipposed to have a small engine, where as the two others are 383 magnums by the vin.
The R/T is still 100% original as per the build sheet except for the dash board whaich has benn changed to ralley type.

Ron: Ok I ckecked the convertible ratio, and this is the one I wish to do stroke the engine. I was shocked, it is roughly 1.7 
Justy to make sure I am talking sense, I marked one tyre, and marked the transmission shaft (the one going from the engine side to the differential). When the tyre rotated one complete turn, the shaft rotated roughly 1.7 turns. Is this the ratio or do I have to multiply it by 2?? Pls advise.

Bob:Remember I said I am interested in small block strokers, well here are photos of two of of my small block cars, the first being a 72 Plymouth (also most of it is still original with tags and all), and the second is a 72 charger (the photo is during the Israeli attack where a nearby bridge was blown and the car was nearby, but still repairable). The third is for a 70 Challenger but with a straight six engine. Have you done a stroker for such an engine before, or it is not worth it? Better put in a big block engine? All three cars I do not intend to keep, but will put them in great condition with a powerful engine before letting them go.

Regards, Farouk

[firefighter3931]

Ron: Ok I ckecked the convertible ratio, and this is the one I wish to do stroke the engine. I was shocked, it is roughly 1.7 
Justy to make sure I am talking sense, I marked one tyre, and marked the transmission shaft (the one going from the engine side to the differential). When the tyre rotated one complete turn, the shaft rotated roughly 1.7 turns. Is this the ratio or do I have to multiply it by 2?? Pls advise.

Regards, Farouk

Farouk, it sounds like you have an open rear end (non suregrip). To check the axle ratio on an open rear ; leave one wheel on the ground and repeat the same test. Give that a try and let us know what you come up with. 


Ron


Ps. Nice collection of Mopars....you've got everything covered....B & E bodies 

[Challenger_7]

Thank you Ron  for the compliment.

On the ratio, that is how I did it. I lifted one side and rotated the wheel till it came back to position, and the transmission shaft had rotated just under 1.6 turns. Today I measured the tape markings a bit more accurately. So what is the verdict. do I multiply by 2 to get the correct ratio?

Some more news on the "Red" car that I will post in the "how to balance an engine"

Cheers.

[MOPARHOUND!]

(Came across this old thread, thought it worth my time to reply).

Just my opinion, but I also don't think it's fair to quote "legendary" engine builders, and say "they said this or that".

My "opinions" are based on quotes I have personally read and/or copied, hard to get much more accurate or fair than that............ .

Moparts.com does not archive the Race Only forum to my knowledge, and those quotes have since past into anonymity from their site.  However.......

2) Contrary to theory/physics, the shorter cylinder walls of the B have not proven to be a real world advantage to the longer RB cylinder walls.  A direct quote, and an indirect quote, from 2 long time mopar engine builders in Florida (paraphrased and edited for diplomatic reasons, as one was rather emphatic about his findings):

"Alot has been said about block strength differences between low deck and RB blocks. I would say the bottom end is surely stronger in the lowdeck block, but the "theory" about stiffer cylinder walls isn't so.  I've done random sampling on no less the 25 blocks and found that when removing the torque plate after honing, the lowdeck B shows more cylinder distortion by more than .001 every time.  We have seen the RB walls move as much as .0016", the low decks have moved as much as .0031". That's a huge difference. It's not a scientific test, since very few of those blocks were sonic checked, but since the head bolt pattern is the same for both, you explain the difference..........."

A reply in the same thread:

"Dan Dvorak would not even build my 493" out of my nice 400 block for this very reason (cylinder distortion)."  (And this was a street/mostly strip build.)

The above quotes were "Copied" and pasted from a now expired January 2004 thread on Moparts.com.  Dead link:  http://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=QuestionAnswer&Number=620064&fpart=&PHPSESSID .    DRAM is the poster of the direct quote, and Harpo is the poster of the Dan Dvorak indirect quote, he has an entire website devoted to his car, and combinations he has ran.  For what it is worth, DRAM's website: http://www.performanceonlyracing.com/ ...........  Harpo's website: http://www.health.ufl.edu/~rdeason/66dodge/engine.shtml    .............  Dan Dvorak's website:  http://www.dvorakmachine.com/

But how much?  After all the debate and head scratching, and after all the money and time are invested in a B stroker endeavor, to quote a builder from Michigan, 30+ years building mopar engines, "it's worth a tenth to a tenth and a half" at the track."

Chuck Senatore, owner Muscle Motors of Michigan, in his book "Big Block Mopar Performance", buy it here:  http://www.amazon.com/Big-blk-Mopar-Php1302-Chuck-Senatore/dp/1557883025/ref=sr_1_1/103-8946954-3315845?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1189108731&sr=8-1  (While I personally don't agree with a few other statements in the book, this one struck me as profound.)

"Opinions" otherwise are based on real world 400 versus 440 measurements/spec's, parts availability, etc..  Any other quotes you have in doubt?   

Perhaps my sig?

*Speed costs money son, how fast do you want to go, and for how long?"

An old racing cliche', no source needed.

*"Build the biggest engine you can afford the first time."

More than one source, but primarily Chuck Senatore, owner Muscle Motors of Michigan, in his book "Big Block Mopar Performance", buy it here:  http://www.amazon.com/Big-blk-Mopar-Php1302-Chuck-Senatore/dp/1557883025/ref=sr_1_1/103-8946954-3315845?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1189108731&sr=8-1

*"We normally wouldn't use a 383 for this build, parts and labor for a 440 cost the same"

Ray Barton, in an online Mopar Action(?) article once linked to in the "Proven Combo's" section of the old board by 6pkrunner.  Link died (copyright issues? managerial decision to sell more back issues?), and shortly thereafter the old Dodge Charger board died.   New board does not have "Proven Combo's" section.  Quote could be found in an old issue of the magazine.  Link to Mopar Action website, with numerous areas/sections: http://www.moparaction.com/ ............  Ray Barton's website:  http://www.raybarton.com/front_page.htm



     

[PA Dodger]

Wow, that was interesting. I had to sharpen my pencil 3 times taking notes. Maybe I don't want the 496 stroked 383 after all.  It really helps to have the "been there,done that" perspective some of you offer.  I'm thinking 600+ lbft torque is irrelevant once the tires start smoking anyway, but man that sure sounds like fun.
Dan

[Challenger_7]

MOPARHOUND Thank you for your contribution.
I have read this thread over and over again trying to decide what to do, as I have been quite confused and have not ordered a kit yet, but really itching to. In the meantime, I have used the car almost every week-end when the sun was shining.
However, I feel I have come to a conclusion: Will go for the 451, and here is why.
1. I intend to keep the car looking stock, so no major modifications especially to tyres in order to take the extra load.
2. I have recently been driving my 72 Trans Am 455 HO, the power there is amazing and I have to keep pulling my leg off the gas to stop the tires spinning. Even in 3rd gear I get occasional spins. As such with so much power coming in with kits above 451, I will be dancing samba on the road, and our roads are noth that wide
3. Last week-end, we had a classic car timed circuits, and suing my very tame 400 I came 1st amongst 12 cars that included a Dino, Lotus, two Corvettes, A/C Cobra (kit) a Jaguar E-Type and a bunch of other classics. Bottom line, with good skills a 451 will give me enough HP to claim my grounds occasionally.
4. Such a sleek convertible beauty should be kept civilized under the bonnet, and not roughened up by heading towards too much power. I can always do one of the coupes for that.
5. With so many cars in my plate, getting the extra power at a more conservative $$$ tag, is sure welcome.

So please buddies, give me a final supportive vote to say I am doing the right thing as summer will be over soon here in Lebanon, and time will be good to push the car to be stripped down for body and engine work.

1. A couple of questions still need addressing. I was told of a heavy duty clutch, one that is soft to start with and through momentum picks up more pressure to ensure softness on the foot, but strong grip on higher rpm. Any one knows about this and can recommend a supplier?
2. Ron You recommendd an HDP 271 Cam. Who supplies this?
Thanks again for all the input.
Farouk

[Purple440]

Farouk, that red and black Challanger on page 1 is probably the best looking Chally I've ever seen.  I'm using it as my windows desktop for a few days, hope you don't mind 

[Challenger_7]

Purple440 Thanks for the compliment, and you flatter me by using the photo on your desktop
A few members have expressed similar views about the colors and the other day I was driving in Beirut and stopped near a coffee bar, the type with tables on the road side, full of young and mature couples. A 2004 red pristine Ferrari was parked just outside the bar when I stopped there to pick up my daughter. Heads literally turned round and compliments like "wow this is a real car" were flowing from the crouds, totally overriding the presence of the Ferrari
So, buddy, you seem to share views with many, and if you wish to see some more photos of this car, please visit "challenger-registry.com" where this car and its history are featured there. It would also be nice if you register your car there too.
Cheers.