Guess on horsepower?

[defiance]

My charger is currently at a shop with a pro with experience tuning EFI systems - I've given up, myself; the installation was great, but I learned quickly how bad I stink at tuning ...  The shop's very reputable, though, with credits including providing heads to some NHRA record setting vehicles.  The tuning will be done with a dyno, so once it's done, I'll know exact numbers...
But anyway, I'm feeling extremely apprehensive, missing my car, and it's probably going to be late in the week before he has a chance to tune it...  So, I'm just trying to get some ideas what I could expect...  and trying to distract myself so I don't pester the shop guys to death (lol) -  Maybe play a "HP/torque is right" game; whoever gets the closest without going over gets a cookie or something  

Anyway, the car is a 72 charger, stock 2.73 rear end (yeah, I know, that's going to change soon) and 727 tranny.  Stock engine was a 440 magnum, but my dad started the restoration, and didn't get a magnum to replace it with.  The replacement is a "normal" 440, out of a 1970 imperial. 

The engine was built up with basically stock components by a small-town machine shop (with a very good reputation).  The only significant changes were that it was "bored .040 over" (quote from my dad), the heads were ported by the shop, and the cam was changed out for an "agressive" cam.  Unfortunately my dad didn't bother with specs, he just trusted the guy, so I have no idea what the cam is...  The car idles smoothly down into the 800 range, so I'm thinking it is pretty close to factory.  After that, an edelbrock performer intake was installed.  That's pretty much it for the mechanical upgrades on it.  Now, for my part, I put on a mallory distributor, accel "super-coil", MSD plug wires, bosch platinum plugs, locked the distributor down (no advance), and set up spark control from the ECU.  For fuel, I'm running 40psi from a ford econoline pump to a holley 900cfm throttle body with quad 85 lb/hr injectors.  The fuel/timing is controlled by a megasquirt (msns-e configuration).  This is the part that the shop will be tuning, setting all the fuel and ignition maps as well as acceleration enrichments and temperature curves. 

Personally, I'm guessing that there will be minimal HP gain from the fuel/ignition, mostly that will just make it more efficient and driveable.  I'm expecting the HP changes to come from the mechanical changes done before.  Also, I'm thinking that the non-magnum engine will be a 'loss' of hp, but since it came from pre-71, it's not been dramatically de-tuned, so still probably almost as good as the original '72 440-magnum.

So, I'm thinking maybe 420hp at the crank, 370hp or so at the wheels?  This coming from a relatively unknowing non-engine guy...  Does that sound about right?  I'm also thinking torque should be a bit higher, probably around 450-475?

What do you guys think? 

[RD]

i definitely think there is no way to see what your engine will do considering the cam profile is not available and the flow characterisitics of the heads are unknown, as well as valve sizes.  dont even know the compression ratio.

If everything is pretty much stock, then I would say closer to 300 hp at the crank and 245 at the wheels.  but then again, without knowing the cam or the head characteristics, its a long shot I wouldnt bet on.

[defiance]

Yeah... I couldn't believe how little information my dad had from the guy.   Even knowing as little as I do about engines, I would've known better than that.   I tried calling the guy up and asking him directly, but it was years later and he said he didn't even remember the engine at that point.   Still, I was under the impression that the 70 model 440's were like 325 or so stock?   Hm (web search)...   according to http://teamchicago.com/imperial/impfaq.htm , it had 350 at 4400 rpm in '70.   I know HP ratings have changed since then, but surely it would still rate above 300 stock, wouldn't it?   Then if the machine guy was any good at all (it's a race town, both a drag strip and a dirt track, and a lot of the drivers use him, so I'm thinking he's probably not the best, but should be pretty good?), the porting with a well matched - if mild - cam, plus the increased displacement from the bore, and a tiny bit from improved intake...   then add the injection, ignition, proper tuning for another small increase...   Wouldn't that surely add a good 100 or so horses?   Or am I just getting my hopes up too much?   No biggie either way, I just wondered how logical I'm being with my guesses....

[RD]

think you may be getting your hopes up a tad.  that hp gain would totally be determined on whether or not those heads had a stage I, II, or III port job on them to include enlarged valves.  your lack of knowledge on your motor is probably killing you!

[cudaken]

 Defiance, first Maw Mopar goal was to sell car's no matter what they had to do. So they fudge on the HP, 375 Hp sound's way cooler than 270-330 HP that they really made.

Dont hate me guy's, the figuer are from my bible, old DC Racing Manual. Bull shit stopped there and they where trying to help us win not brag.

426 Hemi 390-410 HP
440-6 340-370 HP (that was close) to the 390 HP
440-4 270-330 HP
426 W 290-320 Hp not counting the Maxie 426 it was a killer
400 240-270 HP
383 260-290 HP
340 275-290 and was the only one that was pretty much dead on. There is a reason they are feared and whipped many of 383 and 440 8 3/4 gear end. 290 was the 4-speed cam with X-heads.

These are high and low HP depending on the year of engine. 66 Hemi made the 410 HP, 70 made the 390 HP.

Before we all hanging are head's in shame, 260 HP at the crank will still be a healty street engine.

Defiance, with out more specks there is only one way to have a idea of your HP, it called the quater mile. Weigh you Charger, tell us about the gear's, rear set springs up, sizes of tire or slicks and we can give you a good guess. But, what counts is the ET on the time slip.

I can bragg all day long about my Blowen 440 685 HP at 5200 RPM's. But if I can only run 14's I am dead meat. A win light is all that matter's in real life, not what's comes out of your mouth or printed in a ad! Wipped many of 10's by mouth car' with a high 11's 68 Road Runner.

Looking for more road kill, Cuda Ken 

PS, road kill is normaly the "I have 500 HP" crowed. Show me a et slip or a dyno read out. Other wise jerk off in the men's room, not my shoes.

[defiance]

Well, it's being tuned on a dyno, so I'll know definitively end of this week or beginning of next what the whp is

Were there any differences in the 440-4 and 440-6 engines besides intake and carbs?   If not, do you think a 900cfm throttle body injection system on a performer intake come close to the throughput of a 6-pack?   Keep in mind, the injection and timing will be precisely tuned - on a dyno - so whatever they can do, they will...?

If that's the case, that would put the engine at 340 - 370 right off...   Then with the added displacement, maybe 350-375...?   heads and cam are a complete wild card... I'm thinking head modification is absolutely minimal, and the cam doesn't seem to affect idle, so it's probably minimal, too...

Well, we'll see by the end of the week.   I'll be happy with 300 at the wheels...   240 would seriously disappoint me (the stock 2.5l 4-banger in a Subaru WRX STi puts 240 to the ground...)   But I'm really hoping for more in the 350-370 range  

[cudaken]

 Defiance, well there where something driffrent biut the intake and carb's where the big thing.

Cam speck's where the same, but cam had a driffrent cam lop than the none 6-Pack cars. Made the cam last a little longer with the heaver springs and RPM range. Rod's where made tuffer to take the higher (or should say beat on more) RPM's. They where the hot ticket for some time till we figured out due to the extra weight from the bigger rod beam they would slow you down and go Boom at close to the same RPM. 440-6 pcks also had dual point disributer and I think clutch fans.

I may have missed something like Hemi oil pressuer sping and the Hemi 6 quart pan but other than that I don't think so. Sure someone will tell me I am wrong.

On the rear wheel HP, did you not say you had something like a 2.70 something rear gear? If so, no where what you are hoping for. Rear wheel HP is a math question. Rear gear is a multiplier for good or bad. In both our cases bad for rear wheel HP.

I have Torque out the ass so my 2.76's gear will just make it fun. If the figuers are with in 20% I will have 631 foot pounds at the crank at 2000 RPM's. Ray seem's to think it will be around 789 foot pounds.  I asked Neil (chryco pshyco) what he thought my rear wheel Hp would be. Told me "Ken, don't want to make you feel bad so I won't say".

If I had to guess and it is a guess. I would say 250 HP Max. Hope I am wrong for bragging right's but that is still good. All so have to hook up the rear meat's as well on a chassis dyno. No traction no action.

Real good thing is no matter how high or low your 440 comes in at, it will be in the best tune it could be. That is a biggie, not right you lose.

              Cuda Ken

PS, I was going to have the Blowen 440 tuned on dyno stand, but well life got in the way again.

[defiance]

I guess I'm showing once again that my car knowlege is rather paltry   I had assumed that the only difference the gears made would be what speed the HP would occur at (4.11's at 30 mph = 2.76 at 50 mph or something).  I guess that's not true?
Ah well, you're right about the last... It being tuned to its best is still going to be great; I love that car even if it's 50hp - and either way, it does - and still will - feel like a heckuva lot more than the STi

[Badbob]

A basically stock motor with an unknown cam. The performer manifold is just a tad better than stock, sure it's not a performer rpm? Your engine will only flow as much as the smallest restriction. Your 900 cfm fuel system may be overkill, a 750 cfm carb with vacuum secondaries would give out of the box performance at a greatly reduced cost. My guess 260 hp at the wheels. But hey, 300 rwhp with a good trans and chassis will get you into the 12's.

[miller]

hey i know this sounds kinda dumb talking about how much performance a 318 has, but do you know the "real" ratings for that, what would you expect it to be with headers and a 4 b. carb and intake?  Also what would the normal 440 have, like out of a new yorker? Just wondering cuz those are the motors i have....

[defiance]

Ah well, thanks for the insight... Now I won't be nearly so disappointed as I would have been otherwise

Oh - as a note on the oversided throttle body, I'm thinking it shouldn't actually 'hurt' anything - since fuel injection is not dependent upon vacuum to pull the fuel through, it won't lean out from being oversized like a carb would...   So if that's true, going slightly oversized works fine for now, but gives me room to build the motor up pretty dramatically without any fuel hardware changes (just retune the fuel map in software).   Let me know if that's faulty logic

Oh, and I just noticed your question - yes, it's a performer RPM intake.

[Badbob]

I think I'll up my guess to 325 hp at the wheels.

[cudaken]

 Defiance your far from being stupid, you have a Mopar right

If number on paper bug you, should see the title for my 68 Road Runner, title say's it has 51.2 HP? 

Like I said, only numbers that count is on the ET slip. We have all fell into the trap day dreaming about the BIG numbers so real HP is a let down. But as Bad Bob said, 300 at the rear wheels and hooking up is one bad Charger.

On the injection, best thig to do would to post about that in the Performance Section.

                                        Cuda Ken

[defiance]

Well, I guess we'll never know

Turns out the shop found that two of the four tb injectors were having issues ... Since they were on the same side, parts of the engine were getting far different amounts of fuel than others.  No wonder I was having trouble tuning the darned thing!!

Anyway, After talking with them and looking at replacement injectors, I've pretty much decided to let them fabricate a port injector manifold and just do a full port injection system... which will probably add a few horses

Anyway, I just went from a few days to a few weeks... ah well ...

[cudaken]

 Defiance, sorry to hear that. I know how that goes as well. Yesterday was to be the big day to light the holes in my Charger!    Talk about a bad day, after fixing dum shit stuff fuel pump was dead! No 383 or 440 pumps to be found on sunday where I live.

Like the questions you have asked as well. More you know the better you will get.

By the way, why could not Holley supply injectors and did you buy it new or used?

                             Cuda Ken

[defiance]

Well, the throttle body (with injectors) was bought new, but it was bought by my dad when he was originally building the engine.   He put it on, fueled it up, started it, then let it sit for quite a while (a couple years, I think it was), then blew the ECU, took it off, and put it in storage.   Not good for it.   It appeared to be working when I put my ECU on it, but apparently not nearly good enough.

Holley injectors are available, but somewhat hard to find, and relatively expensive.   When it all comes down to it, buying inexpensive, mass-produced port injectors, even after the cost of manifold fabrication, the cost is only a couple hundred different... the computer in there already supports multiport, so the only electrical change is rerouting the wires...   and given the advantages of port injection, I don't think I can pass it up!   The downtime stinks... but it's been this long... and there are very few fuel injected 440's ... but I'd bet the number of port injected 440's on the street is miniscule!   I'm all about individuality