Legal advice/comment

[Bob]

State of Pa.
New home less than a year and still on the bumper to bumper warranty. Roof started leaking about 7 months ago. The general contractor told me it was not. Ceiling in the living is getting yellow now. Roofer finally came and found a hole. He repaired it. General contractor does not want to repair the yellow water stains in my living room. Here is the email I sent him this morning when they told me they could "Kiltz" it or spot paint. This is a non painted ceiling since the plaster guy did a incredible job. Kiltz or paint would stick out like a sore thumb. They do not want to paint it. I feel it is there responsability for any collateral damage caused by substandard work, by the way is reason they gave me. Here it is:

Brad/Virgil,
I'm a little concerned about this situation. The middle of last year I did bring to the attention of Virgil about the stain above the upper window facing the deck. Virgil, you said you weren't sure what it was. Everyone who seen it said it was a water stain. I sort of blew that off because it was a new roof. When the plasterer was in the house, twice he stated it was a leak. Time went on and I could not believe the roof was leaking. I just assumed maybe someone spilt something on the dry wall before installation and it eventually bled through. When the bigger stains showed up I knew something was up. When the roofer did come out he stated it was due to faulty workmanship on the framers part. I don't know why or what caused the leak but I should not be responsible for faulty workmanship. I did point it out early after we moved in. I just the want stains covered, painted or whatever. Collateral damage due to improper techniques/construction should be corrected/repaired at no cost to me. I just want it the way it was when we moved in. Huge white spots from kiltz or paint just to cover the yellow stains should not be acceptable. I don't mean to sound frustrated but I guess my first mistake was treating this house like a new car under warranty.
Thanks
Bob

[19Charger68]

Kilz is an acceptable way to encapsulate the stain.  The problem of matching then comes into play.  If they kilz the stain they should paint the entire ceiling to make sure it matches.  Another potential problem - mold - in the area of the leak.  If you think there is mold, they should cut out the bad section and replace it and then paint the ceiling completely to match.

[Bob]

Kilz is an acceptable way to encapsulate the stain.  The problem of matching then comes into play.  If they kilz the stain they should paint the entire ceiling to make sure it matches.  Another potential problem - mold - in the area of the leak.  If you think there is mold, they should cut out the bad section and replace it and then paint the ceiling completely to match.

My thoughts exactly. Thank You.

[Old Moparz]

Sounds like he's hoping you'll get sick of chasing him down & that eventually you'll go away & forget about it. Just document what letters & paperwork you have, as well as estimates & repairs that you paid for, & summarize it in a timeline. Establishing his failure to correct the problem will be to your benefit. At this point I would just file the necessary papers in small claims court, or whichever court it falls in, in your case, & when he gets served the papers is when he'll take notice. This is when he'll probably try to make good on it & back peddle with excuses to get you to withdraw the claim.

Don't.

You can withdraw the claim after he makes good on it, if he does at all. Have photos of the damage too, they speak volumes.

Good luck.

[19Charger68]

You are welcome.  Beautiful house by the way.  Hope they fix it right!

[400/6/PAC]

I agree
Kilz will elimanate the stain and will also kill any mold that may be there, but only on the side they use the kilz on.
If you have mold on the top side of the sheetrock, it will still be there.
Hold out and keep bugging them untill they replace the sheetrock.
If you let them do a simple fix, you will never be happy with your new home just knowing that it's not right and not what you paid for.
Thats to nice of a home to not fix it right.
Good luck
David

[bull]

My experience with contractors has not been positive. I'm sure they are innundated with complaints all the time because of the sheer number of jobs they do and the intricacy of the work so I imagine they don't have a lot of time to deal with the past. Not saying that's right (because IMO it isn't) but they are very busy nontheless. For that reason (and maybe some others) they are putting you off and probably hoping you will give up so if this is important to you, and you want to choose this fight, you have to come after them from every angle. Keep calling them, call the govt. agency that deals with their contractor's license, call the BBB, etc. After they've had it up to here from you they'll do what it takes to get you off their backs.

[NHCharger]

I've been building houses for 20+ years.
The roofer comes out finds a "hole", claims it's faulty workmanship on the framer's part, but still fixes the hole. Yup, this is the typical blame game that alway goes on in construction. Just from looking at your house I don't see any dramatic angles, hips, valleys or dormers. What I do see is a beautiful chimney that if not flashed in properly would be the prime source for a leak. If the flashing was not weaved into the shingles correctly and sealed, that's the roofers fault.
The roofer doesn't want to admit he made a mistake because if you press the GC to repair the stained area properly the GC will want the roofer to reimburse him for his expenses.

[moparguy01]

I've been building houses for 20+ years.
The roofer comes out finds a "hole", claims it's faulty workmanship on the framer's part, but still fixes the hole. Yup, this is the typical blame game that alway goes on in construction. Just from looking at your house I don't see any dramatic angles, hips, valleys or dormers. What I do see is a beautiful chimney that if not flashed in properly would be the prime source for a leak. If the flashing was not weaved into the shingles correctly and sealed, that's the roofers fault.
The roofer doesn't want to admit he made a mistake because if you press the GC to repair the stained area properly the GC will want the roofer to reimburse him for his expenses.

isnt this why you have a contractor? so you can go after the contractor to fix it then they go after who is responsible? I dont know anything about building houses professionally but this is what I had thought it was about. The way i understood it it was the contractor who was responsible for getting the building built, or the work subcontracted out to a subcontractor who will do the work right, since the average person has no idea what all they would have to do. I also thought the contractor was supposed to inspect the work and make sure it is done right?

[NHCharger]

I also thought the contractor was supposed to inspect the work and make sure it is done right?

Your absolutely right. Unfortunately here in New Hampshire you don't need a license to be a contractor. The things I have seen and in many cases refused to fix you wouldn't believe. My crew and I did all the framing, roofing, siding, painting and finish work. Just didn't trust anyone else. Many GC's up here are real estate agents who have less knowledge about building a house than the home owners, they give us all a bad name.
The GC is ultimately responsible for all the work done.
Best thing to do is send the GC a registered letter about what they want fixed with a time line, say 60 days, and mention that they are sending a copy to their lawyer and will pursue legal action if not fixed. Ask for a letter from the GC on how he intends to resolve this issue.
If the GC is a stand up guy he'll reply with in two weeks, if not, your in for a fight.

[PocketThunder]

I've been building houses for 20+ years.
The roofer comes out finds a "hole", claims it's faulty workmanship on the framer's part, but still fixes the hole. Yup, this is the typical blame game that alway goes on in construction. Just from looking at your house I don't see any dramatic angles, hips, valleys or dormers. What I do see is a beautiful chimney that if not flashed in properly would be the prime source for a leak. If the flashing was not weaved into the shingles correctly and sealed, that's the roofers fault.
The roofer doesn't want to admit he made a mistake because if you press the GC to repair the stained area properly the GC will want the roofer to reimburse him for his expenses.

   How is that satellite dish mounted?

[NHCharger]

the stain above the upper window facing the deck.

Based on that statement I was assuming the leak is on the gable end where the chimney is.
Maybe 400BB can prove us with some additional info.

[Bob]

Lots of good advice. I do have all email correspondence and have recorded any messages left by the GC. Don't get me wrong, we love the house. I have learned that if there is not a clear meeting of the minds they will always plead ignorance and state that was not discussed. We have bought several houses but our goal was to have one built to our specifications. There is nothing complicated about the house. No strange twists or angles in the house or roof. You are correct NHCharger, the leak was about 12 inches back from the chimney, ran down between the rafters and every 4 feet ran across the drywall at the seems. We are so frustrated with the way we are being treated. Here are some major issues we had. We wanted a maintenance free deck so we spent the extra money for a full Trex decking and hand rails. The sub who got the job sent his dad to do the installation. He had never worked with Trex so he built the deck like he would a wood deck. WRONG. The entire rail system would sway back and forth 6 inches either way. It takes special screw to lay the deck, not regular deck screws. All had to be replaced. The electrical, you would turn on the family room lights and the dining room lights would come on. You would turn on the lower outside light and upper deck lights would come on. Simple plumbing job ok. Well everytime you turned on the hot water for the upstairs bathroom or the lower, the pipes would bang. The plumber did not want to repair since they could not pinpoint the sound. Eventually, they cut 3 holes in the lower ceiling until they found the pipes that were banging. Cause, clamped to tight, no room for expansion. Guess what, they are doing it again. Floors, theres more creaks and squeaks than my grandmothers knees. They did try and repair some by ripping up the carpet and screwing in 10 pounds of screws and nails. Your right, did not work. How about the bibs!! 2 out of the 4 started leaking bad. You guessed it, cut more holes in the walls to disconnect the old bibs and install new ones. One thing after the other. I WILL NEVER USE A GENERAL CONTRACTOR AGAIN. I learned enough from this experience that I will bid my own work. You ask why I selected this one? Funny, it's because I never heard one complaint from anyone on his houses. I guess I did not ask enough people.
Like was said in one of the responses, he is hoping I'll go away. NOT, this is not over yet. Worst case I will get an attorney.
Thank you for letting me vent and giving me some good advice. If your in my neck of the woods stop by for a coke or coffee. You can't miss my house. It's the only one that leans to left.
On the bright side, my garage came out wonderfull.

[hemi68charger]

Bob,,
Man, I hope everything works out..... I'm having issues as well with a GC that did my Mom's interior repaint, flooring and tiling......... Needless to say, we had problems. I hate getting screwed..... Alot of fly-by night GC's try to claim they aren't making any money, they are doing me a favor....... Come on, give me a break. There are good ones and there are bad ones. As a customer, you put a certain amount of trust in the GC you eventually hire. Doesn't anyone take pride in their work anymore?  The blame game can go on and on, but ultimately, it's the GC that has the greatest responsiblity for teh job and towards the client.......

Troy

[Bob]

Bob,,
Man, I hope everything works out..... I'm having issues as well with a GC that did my Mom's interior repaint, flooring and tiling......... Needless to say, we had problems. I hate getting screwed..... Alot of fly-by night GC's try to claim they aren't making any money, they are doing me a favor....... Come on, give me a break. There are good ones and there are bad ones. As a customer, you put a certain amount of trust in the GC you eventually hire. Doesn't anyone take pride in their work anymore?  The blame game can go on and on, but ultimately, it's the GC that has the greatest responsiblity for teh job and towards the client.......

Troy

So do I. I must admit that not all GC's are like this.  But for every bad one he takes down 9. Meaning 1 bad apple spoils the whole bunch. Fair? No.
Once this ceiling issue is done I think I'll write a book and expose there little shortcuts and 1001 questions to ask a GC before signing. Should sell well.
Thanks Troy

Bob

[19Charger68]

Well, the garage looks great - and so does the Charger!

[PocketThunder]

Lots of good advice. I do have all email correspondence and have recorded any messages left by the GC. Don't get me wrong, we love the house. I have learned that if there is not a clear meeting of the minds they will always plead ignorance and state that was not discussed. We have bought several houses but our goal was to have one built to our specifications. There is nothing complicated about the house. No strange twists or angles in the house or roof. You are correct NHCharger, the leak was about 12 inches back from the chimney, ran down between the rafters and every 4 feet ran across the drywall at the seems. We are so frustrated with the way we are being treated. Here are some major issues we had. We wanted a maintenance free deck so we spent the extra money for a full Trex decking and hand rails. The sub who got the job sent his dad to do the installation. He had never worked with Trex so he built the deck like he would a wood deck. WRONG. The entire rail system would sway back and forth 6 inches either way. It takes special screw to lay the deck, not regular deck screws. All had to be replaced. The electrical, you would turn on the family room lights and the dining room lights would come on. You would turn on the lower outside light and upper deck lights would come on. Simple plumbing job ok. Well everytime you turned on the hot water for the upstairs bathroom or the lower, the pipes would bang. The plumber did not want to repair since they could not pinpoint the sound. Eventually, they cut 3 holes in the lower ceiling until they found the pipes that were banging. Cause, clamped to tight, no room for expansion. Guess what, they are doing it again. Floors, theres more creaks and squeaks than my grandmothers knees. They did try and repair some by ripping up the carpet and screwing in 10 pounds of screws and nails. Your right, did not work. How about the bibs!! 2 out of the 4 started leaking bad. You guessed it, cut more holes in the walls to disconnect the old bibs and install new ones. One thing after the other. I WILL NEVER USE A GENERAL CONTRACTOR AGAIN. I learned enough from this experience that I will bid my own work. You ask why I selected this one? Funny, it's because I never heard one complaint from anyone on his houses. I guess I did not ask enough people.
Like was said in one of the responses, he is hoping I'll go away. NOT, this is not over yet. Worst case I will get an attorney.
Thank you for letting me vent and giving me some good advice. If your in my neck of the woods stop by for a coke or coffee. You can't miss my house. It's the only one that leans to left.
On the bright side, my garage came out wonderfull.

What are bibs?

[19Charger68]

Bibs are sillcocks - you know - where you hook up a garden hose.

[dkn1997]

Many of the problems you are having sound like poor installation/workmanship.  Any good contractor will not have this many problems because the good contractor knows that it's less hassle to just pay more for good, reliable subs.  If the contractor plans to stand behind his work, then he usually pays more for good subs who don't cause him to have to deal with problems.  He  realizes it's cheaper to overpay for wiring or plumbing if he can write the check and never hear about it again. 

The rotten contractor will price shop up the wazoo and get screwed by cheap, working out of the trunk of their car, crackhead subs.   Then, to show how generous he is, he passes the screwing onto you. 

point is that if he hired subs that produced the problems you describe, then it's unlikely that he has plans to make it right.

Also,  a leak in a roof caused by framing?    and why would any respectable roofer install a roof over faulty framing?  If the framing was so bad as to cause a leak this soon, then any "fault" should have been noticed when the roof was being installed and addressed then.  any framing problem so bad as to cause a leak should have been noticed in the first place.   

NH has it right, typical blame game. 

[NHCharger]

                                                                                                                                               
If your in my neck of the woods stop by for a coke or coffee. You can't miss my house.            It's the only one that leans to left.

I'll be in PA for Carlisle in July, I might take you up on that offer.
Leans to the left, now that's funny.

Your floors still squeak after screwing them down? It's probably the edges of the plywood rubbing together. When I first started building T&G plywood was still relatively new and not many people used it. You were supposed to space the plywood 1/8" so the sheets wouldn't rub together and squeak. After we started using the T&G plywood we still had that same problem on occasion. The way we solved it was in addition to gluing the sheets to the joists, we applying a bead of construction glue to the T&G joint.

[Bob]

                                                                                                                                               
If your in my neck of the woods stop by for a coke or coffee. You can't miss my house.            It's the only one that leans to left.

I'll be in PA for Carlisle in July, I might take you up on that offer.
Leans to the left, now that's funny.

Your floors still squeak after screwing them down? It's probably the edges of the plywood rubbing together. When I first started building T&G plywood was still relatively new and not many people used it. You were supposed to space the plywood 1/8" so the sheets wouldn't rub together and squeak. After we started using the T&G plywood we still had that same problem on occasion. The way we solved it was in addition to gluing the sheets to the joists, we applying a bead of construction glue to the T&G joint.

Stop in. It's not that far to the show. As far as the plywood, I did notice glue being applied very sparingly. The entire lower level has no problems. I used superior walls and a poured a 6" floor. "The Blame Game" is right. I have not heard a word from the GC yet since the email. I guess they are planning there next strategy. I thought maybe the floor joist could be part of the problem. Next time I'm going with all concrete floors and all. The additional cost will be worth it. Even if it cracks at least it won't squeak. The next house I build, which will happen, I'll advertise here for contractors.

[Bob]

Yesterday I filed a complaint with the BBB in Washington, D.C. that handles MD and eastern Pa. We'll see how that goes before I get a lawer.
Bob

[Bob]

Update: Well it was worth going to the BBB. They were quick and demanded quick replies to messages from both sides. Next Friday the ceiling is getting primed and painted.