How would you build it?

[Dave22443]

 So I got my hands on a 1974 440 engine out of a wrecked car and I've been saving my pennies.  This week, I finally dropped it off at the engine shop so they can rip it apart and check to make sure its good. 

  Now, put yourself in my shoes, draw on your years of experience, and answer this question:

If you could build it any way you wanted, how would YOU build this engine for the street? 
(And tell me why or why not, be as specific as you are willing)


Here is where its going:

1968 Dodge Charger
727 outfitted with Transgo TF-2 shift kit
Stock converter (new, but nothing fancy)
4.11 Posi rear pumpkin in 8 3/4 housing
15x10 Magnum rims out back wrapped in 295.50R.15 rubber
92 to 93 octane pump gas.

Items I already have:
850 Thermoquad carb (newly rebuilt)
Edelbrock duel plane intake manifold (aluminum)
complete Electronic ignition conversion kit
Headers
(I'm going to use the stock heads, but they can be reworked)
$$$

[firefighter3931]

Dave, the pistons should be swapped out if at all possible. The compression ratio with the stock 74 pistons will be very low...in the high 7's to low 8's. The speedpro 2355 6-pack pistons will give you approx 9.3-9.5 compression with the stock heads. Have the heads cleaned up and a 3 angle valvejob done. There are lots of good camshaft options out there. Your converter choice will dictate which is best.


Ron

[deputycrawford]

     There are many others with more experience but I have had a few engines built myself. I also get many ideas from others here like Firefighter and Chryco, then choose my combo from there. I do know that many people here might need more information from you. What kind of money are you willing to spend? Do you want to keep that cast crank? Is money a major factor in the build? I know you mentioned stock heads and converter. I will go from there with a mild build.
     I would recondition the crank and rods. Bore the cylinders the minimum amount to clean the bores up and machine the block accordingly. Order pistons for the deck height of the block to get a zero deck. Measure the valve reliefs in cc's and mill the heads the proper amount to get around 9.25 to 1 compression with a .040 thick head gasket. Its your choice, but a deeper oil pan and high volume pump would be nice for the 4:10 gears. That thing will be spinning hard all the time.
     Just "sport" port the heads. That is a term I have heard for just cleaning and smoothing the intake ports and not "hogging" them out. Install hardened valve seats and call a cam company like Engle for a hydraulic cam and spring combo. You will need to tell them your approximate vehicle weight, converter specs, gear ratio,carb size and style, head specs intended driving use. They can then make you the perfect cam. That 4:10 gear will let you get away with alittle more cam but I would not go more than 230 duration at .050 for the converter specs.
     If that Edelbrock dual plane intake is not a Performer RPM then throw it out. The Performer intake is horrible. The Performer RPM intake is awsome. I would also think about going to a Holley based carb. The Thermo Quads can be made to run but you will be giving up some horse and maybe some part throttle response.
     This is a simplified set up but its a start. Many more will have different and good ideas so keep your mind open. Just remember my motto; its better to WAY too much than not enough.

[jg68]

If your doing it on the cheap, get some TRW2355 pistons, do a mild bowl blend on the heads & a 30* back-cut on the valves, have the rods re-done with good bolts or (440source has new LY rods with 7/16 bolts for a very good price) keep the cast crank, they will handle 500-550 hp no problem, have it all balanced & have the crank alignment checked also, RPM intake or SD, 750-800 holley.

Your really going to need a converter with any real perf. type cam, stockers won't cut it, if you really want some tire fryin fun, get you a 9.5in with anywhere from 32-3600 flash stall & a cam in the upper 230s/lower 240s dur. @ 50, 520-530 lift, adj. valvetrain. I prefer PTC converters.

Now if you want to step it up a notch, getcha a 512 440source stroker kit 

[Dave22443]

  Where would I find this 512 stroker kit and how much would it cost?     I have enough money to properly build what I've got, but probably not enough for a full on stroker kit, although that would be nice.

Here's some additional information.

Getting a better converter is easy for me to do before it goes in.  I had just assumed that a stock one would probably be best for the street.  Given a better converter and the Transgo shift kit, would there be anything else I would need to do to the otherwise stock 727?

I had already planned on boring the block and upping the compression.  I was considering going with a .030 overbore and 10.1 pistons.  The heads will get stainless valves.  My engine guy is suggesting putting in a larger intake valve as well.  Would 9.25 to 9.5 be better?

The intake I got was an older NOS Edelbrock.  It does not say "Performer" or "Performer RPM" on it.  All it has on it is the name "Edelbrock" and a number "S.P.2-P.440" and "Pat.Pend"  It looks a lot like the stock iron intake and my primary reason for getting it was for weight savings.

If I don't use the Edelbrock, I have two other cast iron intakes. One is from a '74 440 with the spread bore and one is from a '68 440 with all the holes the same size.  Of these three intakes, which would you suggest?  (The edelbrock is spread bore like the '74)

I'm looking for an engine that has between 475 to 525 hp with 500+ pounds feet of torque that can run on pump gas and be driven up to 2500 miles a year.  The cars primary use will be defending mother mopars name on the street against ricers, Rustangs 5.0's and Camaro's.  There is a local dragstrip near here but its only 1/8 mile.  Sometimes grudges are settled here on Friday nights.

My primary driving speeds are between 50 and 60 mph with some periods of time spent at 20 mph if cruising through town. The car has a 26" radiator in it. It also has manual disk brakes so vacumm is only needed for the headlight doors and timing advance.

Thanks!

[firefighter3931]

Dave, bulding a 500hp 440 takes a bit of planning and some good parts....especially if you want to run pump gas. You need to build a tight quench zero deck shortblock and use good heads. That means porting your iron heads or going with aluminum castings. 

Here's a good thread to look at for ideas : Vegas Mike's 446 

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,6000.0.html



Ron

[Dave22443]

Thanks for the link FF.  I'll check it out.

  In looking back, I realize I mispoke my desired HP ratings.  What I really wanted was an honest 50 - 100 HP gain over a factory 440HP, which I feel is very do-able.  Since a '68 440 HP was rated at 375, my goal should have been stated as 425 to 475 HP, not 500+   I would be very happy with anything 425 and above.  (Not sure what I was smoking when I said 475 to 525 but it must have been good!)

  Please disreguard my earlier goal.  Anywhere in the 425 to 475 range will be quite satisfactory.

Do I still need the stall speed and aluminum heads?

[firefighter3931]

Dave, you won't need the aluminum heads for that power goal. The increased stall speed will be needed because the cam required to make that type of power will come in at a higher rpm.  A stock hp cam has a pretty flat power curve but falls off around 5000rpm. A more agressive cam profile will come on later but also hold on longer. If your cam hits hard at 2500 rpm and you have a 1800 stall the car will be real lazy out of the hole and you won't be happy. The converter needs to be matched to the cam profile for best results.

What intake manifold do you have ? Some of the old eddy manifolds are poor in terms of performance and not suitable for a performance application.  Does the car have power brakes ?



Ron

[Chryco Psycho]

Exactly what I was going to ask , if it is a Edddy performer get anything else

[Dave22443]

The car does not have power brakes.

As for intake, I currently have three options.
1) I have a stock cast iron intake with 4 equal sized holes (1968 version I think)
2) I have a stock cast iron intake with a spread bore (1974 version)
3) I have an Edelbrock Aluminum intake that closly resembles the '74 stock intake.

  On the Edelbrock, the only markings on it are "Edelbrock", "S.P.2-P.440" and "PAT. PEND."  It very much looks like an aluminum version of a stock intake.

Question on the stall speed.

  If I put in a 2500 stall, what happens when I'm driving at 1500 or less?  Does the stall slip a lot and cause the engine to rev but the car not to move so well?  Does it cause excess heat buildup?  And would you reccomend an external transmission cooler?

  Lets assume that I do put a 2500 stall in the car.  What would be a good cam for this application?  And is one brand of cam better than another?

[firefighter3931]

Dave, none of those manifolds are descent for a performance build....the sp2p is a smog manifold that was designed primarily for towing applications. The Holley Street Dominator would be a good choice with the 4.10's and a 2500 stall.....it also will accept a spreadbore carb (thermoquad) and is low enough so that you won't have to modify your kickdown and throttle linkage. 

A good quality converter will drive like a stocker....you won't know it's there until you hammer the pedal. PTC makes a nice 11in 2500 stall street converter....that's what i would use.

A lunati VooDoo cam would be a good choice or an engle custom grind. Something with around 225*@.050 intake duration would be ideal. 

http://www.holley.com/60303.asp



Ron

[Dave22443]

Thanks Ron, that helps a lot.  Bummer about my intake.  Wish I had known that before I bought it.  Oh well, live an learn.

On the Holley intake, I assume your talking about one of these?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/MOPAR-RB-440-HOLLEY-STREET-DOMINATOR-INTAKE-MANIFOLD-NR_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ36474QQitemZ280098129413QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW

As for the converter, would this be an acceptable substitute?  It's already setup for my '74 engine and might not cost me $400
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Dayco-StallTorque-converter-For-BB-Mopar-727B-TF_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ133188QQitemZ250096830869QQrdZ1

[firefighter3931]

Dave, that is the correct manifold.....get it if you can ! Holley has been reproducing the 440 street dominator...current part # is 300-14 if you want to buy one new. 

On the converter....i'm not familiar with that company. When i think of Converters the names that come to mind are Turbo Action, Dynamic, PTC, Coan, Ati. These are quality converters and this is one item you don't want to skimp on. A low quality converter will feel loose and sloppy at lower engine speeds....you won't like it. I'm not saying that is the case with this particular unit, but why chance it.

Ron

[Dave22443]

Gotcha.  Good advice.  Thanks for all the input.

[firefighter3931]

Dave, call John Cope at CRT (Cope racing transmissions) for the PTC 11in converter....he can fix you up. Make sure to mention that the engine will be externally balanced so he can send the correct unit for your application. 

http://www.coperacingtrans.com/727.htm



Ron

[Bandit4142]

Dave, call John Cope at CRT (Cope racing transmissions) for the PTC 11in converter....he can fix you up. Make sure to mention that the engine will be externally balanced so he can send the correct unit for your application. 

http://www.coperacingtrans.com/727.htm



Ron

*** Slightly off-topic ***    A big THANKS to Ron (firefighter3931) for recommending that we speak to John at Cope.   I contacted CRT today and had the oppritunity to talk to John at lenght about my current 727 build that I'm going through.   He was an incredible help in both suggestions and answering all my questions, big and small.    I am absolutely sold on CRT!   Great guy (and company) to deal with.   

[rob9593]

*** Slightly off-topic ***    A big THANKS to Ron (firefighter3931) for recommending that we speak to John at Cope.   I contacted CRT today and had the oppritunity to talk to John at lenght about my current 727 build that I'm going through.   He was an incredible help in both suggestions and answering all my questions, big and small.    I am absolutely sold on CRT!   Great guy (and company) to deal with.   

Good Choice....CRT for Transmissions, Best Machine for Motors..............John is a great guy

[firefighter3931]

You're welcome Bandit. John has allways treated me right and he takes the time to go through your combo to make sure you get what you need. When you call CRT you talk to John....not some call taker that doesn't know what he's talking about.  I've recommended him to several guys and have never heard one negative comment.  His prices are very competitive as well. 

That PTC 11in converter is an excellent piece....i'll be running one in my 70 r/t 6-pack car when the time comes to sort it out. 



Ron

[Dave22443]

One more quick question:  Will a intake from a 383 fit the 440?  Or are they different?

[deputycrawford]

     The 383 is a "low deck" engine. Also known as a "B" deck. The 440 is the "tall deck" or RB deck. The 440 is taller and the intake is wider than the 383's. They will not interchange unless you run a spacer kit. I would personally keep it simple and buy a dedicated 440 intake.

[Dave22443]

Score!
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=003&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&viewitem=&item=130096131600&rd=1,1

  Should I run that Holley... or my TQ and sell the Holley???
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=002&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWN%3AIT&viewitem=&item=120096775817&rd=1,1

[firefighter3931]

That is a good score...congrats ! Personally, i'm a holley fan but some can get the plastic fantastic to run pretty descent. Try both and see which one you like the best..... then sell the other one. 



Ron