what kind of primer and paint do i need????????

[chargercalvin]

i will be priming painting my 72 charger myself . it is stripped down to bare metal and factory primer. it will be painted in my garage not a painting booth. so i need primer and paint that will hold up against mild temperature change. also i dont want to wait 4 months 4  my paint to dry. i want something fairly quickdrying so dust wont effect it(not that the garage is dusty i just dont want to take any ckances.) i also need the easiest paint to work with because i have never painted a car before. i will shoot the paint when the primer the car wont leave the garage so a primer that is affected by moisture is fine. i will buff in nessary but i would rather not. i will absolutely not wet sand the paint, so i need paint that will look good without sanding. i plan on clearcoating it.

if it helps aircraft remover wouldnt take off the bottom layer of primer, i think that means something. i looked at paint from http://www.paintforcars.com/ it is super cheap is it crappy. i would like to get all my supplies from the same company to avoid noncompatobility. thanks and please help!!!

calvin

[bill440rt]

Not to discourage you, but it sounds like you're asking for a "miracle paint" that does it all. If you've never painted before, you might be better off sending it to a body shop for the paint work alone. You'd have to start from scratch buying supplies, which by the time it adds up it may be better investing it to have the car painted for you.

However, since you've asked, you first need to remove ANY traces of that paint stripper by first rinsing & then using a solvent. You'll then need to sand off any remaining traces of primer, & use a good metal etching chemical. DuPont sells an easy to use product called Metal Prep. Then, you'll need to spray an epoxy primer first, again DuPont & PPG make good epoxy primers. After doing bodywork, you'll need to spray a filler primer. A good & affordable filler primer I've used recently is Evercoat's Uro-Fill. It's along the same lines as DuPont's Uro-Prime, however much more affordable.

If you've never painted before, I wouldn't buy an expensive line of paint for your first paint job. Most top paint manufacturers have a lower line of paint. PPG's lower line is called Omni, & DuPont's is called Nason. Both have basecoat/clearcoat sytems, & single-stage systems. You didn't mention what color you're spraying. If it's a metallic you'd be better off using a base/clear. If it's a solid color & you've never sprayed a car before a single stage urethane will work just fine.

The only reason I mention PPG & DuPont is those are the paint systems I prefer. Sherwin-Williams also sells a cheaper line of paint & is easy to use, but you won't get the quality of PPG & DuPont. Best thing you can do is go down to your local paint/auto body supplier & talk to THEM. They will answer any questions you have faster, & be able to show you products they stock. I would NOT order paint supplies online if you've  never done this before.

Good Luck!

[Todd Wilson]

Massey Ferg. red implement paint from the farm store.     


Todd

[chargercalvin]

i want to paint the car a hooker orange lookalike color. the most important things are that it must be resistant to slight temp change and it must be fairly easy to work with and it must be durable. if anyone has a good link to a paint selling site let me know.

[jaak]

you need to use a single stage urethane, Its easy to get a pretty nice 10-footer job with.

[RogerDodger]

Calvin,   I ran into the same thing when stripping my Charger. Everything came off pretty easy until I got down to the factory paint. I then took it down to the bare metal with 80 grit paper on an orbital sander. Once you get down to the bare metal you know what you really have to work with. Then I cleaned the metal with a grease and wax type remover. Immediately after that I primed everything with epoxy primer. I used PPG's DPLF epoxy primer. This gives the bare metal immediate protection. Then I did all my welding and bodywork and sealed all that work with epoxy again. After that I used PPG's Kondar primer (3 coats). This is a high build primer that is sandable and will fill any minor scratches from the sanding. Use a guide coat and sanding blocks to find any low spots that need more work. If you use a gray primer then a spray can of black lightly dusted over it will give you a good guide coat. Block down the primer until all the black is gone. This may require building up a couple more coats of Kondar primer.

[hemi-hampton]

Maaco paints a car for $199.99. Thats your best bet.  :-\Is Earl Scheib still in Business?  :icon_smile_dissapprove:LEON.

[Drop Top]

Before you get in over your head. Do you have all the right equipment to do this with? If you don't. By the time you get it all. It will be cheaper to have it done. Then by the time you buy the materials you'll really be upside down. How big of an area are you going to be working in? What is the wheather like in your area? If it gets really cold there, your going to have to get it around 70 insde before you can paint with any kind of a good out come. I comend you for whating to do it yourself. Thats how I got started. I was 13 at the time. (I'm 48 now and this is what I do for a living). But my Dad already had the equipment in the farm shop that I needed. Not to mention paint and suplies where really cheap in the 1970s. I could paint a car back then for $100.00 for all the materials and have some left over. Just materials to do a paint job corectlly for a car that has been stripped all the way down to bare metal will be at least $1000.00. Thats on the cheap side at that. Then do you have the time to do it right? Your going to spend around 500 hrs on it. Thats to do it right. Theres alot to think about before you get started. If you have never done this before, it is a big undertakeing. But, If you decide to take on this job. You have come to the right place for assitance. Alot of knollagable people on this board.

[Drop Top]

It was mentioned before. But I'll repeat it. Its best to buy your materials locally. So go and talk to the local atomotive paint supllie store. If you get your materials local you can always go back and talk to them for a little help with their materals. They can set you up with a good system for a first timer.

Depending on what I'm doing. I use Valspar products for primers. PPG for my base. House of Kolor for my clear and sealer just before my base coat. I also use H.O.K. for alot of my base coats. But only on custom colors, like candys and pearl jobs. I've been doing this along time. So I can get away with mixing products. For you I would sugjest staying with all the same systems of the lower end lines from PPG or Du Pont. Before you paint anything go to an automotive recycling yard. Pick up a finder and practice painting that first. Don't worry about body work on it, just paint it to get the hang of it. Its not as easy as it looks on TV.

[chargercalvin]

well one things for sure im not going to macco to get my car painted. it would look good 4 about a month than it would slowly deteriorate. i would have it painted but none of my local bodyshops will paint it without doing the bodywork wich i am doing myself. i have an air compressor and i was toing to but a 200dollar gun setup from eastwood. the website i found has paint for really cheap but is it any good? the website url is in my first post. i dont want to do a super expensive showcar paintjob i just want paint that looks prety good and will last a long time. ideally i want to paint it with 1 gallon of primer and a gallon of paint and clearcoat. i know all about surface prep and sanding i have read 5 books front to back but not learned a thing about the types of paint and what i need for my job. if you guyes could look at that site and see it the paint would be any good.

if i painted the car a glossy gunmetal grey would it hide mistakes better than a hooker orange?

calvin

[bill440rt]

Calvin,
Any metallic color is going to be tough the first time you spray it. Anything in the metallic silver/gray family is by far the toughest colors to spray, it could take a long time of doing this every day for a living to get the proper technique down to spray those colors. Stick with the orange, very easy solid color for a first timer.

If you go with one of the lower lines of the top paint brands (PPG, DuPont, etc), you will have better results & a longer lasting paint job than cheapo paint ordered online. If there's any problems or you need anything extra you can go down to the local auto body supply store & just buy it right there, along with any advice you could ask for. Any modern urethane paint, over a properly prepared surface, should last a long time. Places like Maaco also have several "levels" of paint jobs, you cold talk to them direclty. Sometimes if you request a specific type of paint they will spray that for you.

A gallon of primer, paint & clearcoat is just gonna cut it on a big car like a Charger. I went thru about a gallon & a half EACH of both epoxy & filler primers. I'm using PPG basecoat, which has a big reduction ratio, so a gallon of base will last me a long time. But, I'll probably go thru at LEAST 2 gallons of clear.

Also, Eastwood sells the same guns, usually at a higher price, than you could get at your local supply store as well.

[Todd Wilson]

Dude you dont even have a clue what you are about to get yourself into.


I been going to build a web site for 2 years documenting the home body repair and paint project I did with my 71.  I had help from a forum member here who did some of the work but supervised me on lots of the work I did as I wanted to do it myself and learn and save some $.  The car looks good but is not perfect. A combo of my lack of experience and the garage atmosphere.

What started out as a 3 month project of weekends turned into almost 8 months. I had planned on doing this project at some time and had started buying the tools to do it many years before I started it but I still had to buy tools.

The average farm store compressor WILL NOT run a HVLP paint gun or a DA sander.  So unless you got a big 220 80 gallon unit  dont even start the project. I had to go buy another 110volt compressor and plumb both together and it worked.


You will need to spend 100-150$ for an air filter system to have clean air.

Good paint guns run anywhere from 200$-600$ and can go higher.

I paid about 650$ for PPG primers and paints for my car. I live in Kansas so things are cheaper then CA where Drop Top is at. You can spend what ever on paints though.  You will have hundreds of dollars in consumables such as sand papers and cleaners and plastic fillers. 

You will need to buy a buffer so you can buff the car after the wet sanding process done at the end of the paint. You will easily spend 100$ in compounds and pads to buff the car. Unless you want it to look like orange peel this has to be done. With your lack of paint skills it will be orange peeled to hell and back twice.

I havent even got to the body work.   You will probably need a welder. Hammers and dollys. various sizes and shapes of sanding blocks. Various air tools to make the body work easier. You will possibly need a torch. 

You will run into problems you do not even know about yet or suspect.

If you make your own patch panels you will need tools to do that. Clamps and stuff like that isnt cheap.


We are going into winter. You will need to have a heated place to work on the car  and to paint it in.  Most likely your heater setup CAN NOT BE RAN during the paint process. So you better be able to heat the garage up and shut it down and have the warm air stay in for a while. You will need to turn your garage into a plastic bubble when its time to paint to keep things clean. You will still get dirt in the paint.

I havent even got to safety yet.   Glass's and dust masks to wear during the body process.   A good breathing mask is a must for painting. You will either be dead or run out of the garage from the fumes long before you get the car painted.   You need to think about exhaust for the garage. A build up of paint fumes and overspray is not good for the painting process  and CAN be dangerous as a fire or explosion hazzard. Some people will tell you your fans need to have sealed motors to not allow a spark from the motor to light up fumes being exhausted. This is true  but if you do not let them get to a dangerous level you can use regular motors.   Theres just so much to look into before you even start. You get half way thru the project and find a snag or problem  you may have to cough up a few hundred dollars you werent planning to keep things going. I would have bet 1000$ my 71 didnt have any bondo in it. When we stripped it down  it had apparently been in a minor fender bender years ago and been repaired.  We had to sling the old bondo off and do some repairs to the repair as it had been a wham bam in and out of the shop insurance job many years ago.

Just so much to plan for and be ready for. 


Here are pictures of my project in no certain order.

http://www.chargerfever.com/71restore/index.html


Prime and paint

http://www.chargerfever.com/71paint/index.html

Wet sand and buff

http://www.chargerfever.com/71buff/index.html

Un expected problem with the door and dent we had to fix. And our redneck solution to the problem. Thanks to those that offered advice! You know who you are! If it had been in a body shop this probably would have been put on the alignment rack for some pulling. Took lots of force to pull. I was beginning to wonder if we even had the resources at home to do it but got a smile from the Mopar Gods that day. Once again the blanket on the come along for safety!

http://www.chargerfever.com/problem/index.html



The end result.........after much blood sweat and tears. I remember one night about 1am laying in an inch of sanding dust so tired and sore I could not get up and I didnt care at that point. Bleeding and sweat running in my eyes wondering if I would ever get this project done. I have a respect for the body shop guys. Its very hard work and does take skill. I am sure the more experience I had things would have went faster and easier but I didnt have the thousands and thousands of dollars to pay a shop to do it so I did it myself. And now I have the tools to complete the other 3 projects I hope do finish before I die.






Todd

[chargercalvin]

my friend has a garage that he used to use to paint cars in. i know it is good because he painted his costom s10 a candyapple red with green and white flames and it turned out fine.  he said i could use it but he wouldnt help. so that isnt a problem. as far as time is concerned being a student i have lots of time. i know gung are expensive but for one job a 200 dollar paint/primer gun will be suficient. i will use a smaller air compresser wich will suck i will have tto do it a little at a time. thanks for your advice and your car looks great.

calvin

[hemi-hampton]

Really you need 3 guns to do it right. One cheap $50 gun for Primer & Sealer, Then a $400-600 for Base (paint) then another seperate $400-600 gun for Clear Coat. Or use that same $50 primer gun to spray some Dupont Centari Single Stage Acrylic Enamal & Call it done. LEON.

[Todd Wilson]

my friend has a garage that he used to use to paint cars in. i know it is good because he painted his costom s10 a candyapple red with green and white flames and it turned out fine.  he said i could use it but he wouldnt help. so that isnt a problem. as far as time is concerned being a student i have lots of time. i know gung are expensive but for one job a 200 dollar paint/primer gun will be suficient. i will use a smaller air compresser wich will suck i will have tto do it a little at a time. thanks for your advice and your car looks great.

calvin

You dont understand the compressor will not keep up. You will not be able to spray a little patch at a time. We are talking seconds and you are out of air. You have flash times on paints and when you mix them up to paint you got to paint. When you  run out of air you are gonna spit and spat paint out the gun. Its not like a can of spray paint where you hit it a while and set it down on the bench and wait. You got to paint until you are done. 

You might as well not even start this project because all you will end up with is an expensive piece of crap. And after all that time and money thats a stupid thing to do.


Todd

[bill440rt]

Calvin,
Please don't take these posts the wrong way. It's not that we're trying to discourage you, but if you've never done this before it's a HUGE undertaking both labor & cost-wise.
Todd has given some very wise advice, speaking from experience & without sugar-coating a thing. I'm on my third Charger resto now (not to mention numerous other projects I've done in the past), & it has taken me years to collect all the tools I have. I've also worked in body shops as a painter & tech, so I also speak from experience.

I did NOT paint my first Charger project, either. I was a student just like you, but in high school. It was a father/son project, & with the exception of body & paint we did everything else ourselves. During my next car project I was working in a body shop part-time, & by the time I was on my next project I was working at a body shop full time. Bottom line: it takes years of experience to get the results you're after. You just can't get it from a book or from a message board website.

I have a nice 6hp, 33gal Craftsman air compressor for home use. I can run almost anything I'd like, with maybe the exception of a sandblaster. Anything smaller than this will NOT work for doing body work!! I ran a DA sander the other day for almost an hour. The compressor ran almost constantly, stopping when I stopped to change sandpaper.

You'll be spending lots of time and MONEY doing this. As a student, I suspect you don't have money falling out your butt. I sure didn't. Do as much as you can yourself for your first project. There's plenty to do to save you some money. There's disassembly, reassembly, cleaning, detailing, paint stripping, etc etc. Remove the doors, hood, trunk, fenders, bumpers, lights, interior, etc from the car for the body shop. That should keep you plenty busy. The end result will be a nicer bodywork & paint job that you can still take pride in, & it WILL cost you less in time AND money had you've done it yourself.

[hemi-hampton]

I tried to bypass all that convincing stuff by just saying take it to Maaco for $199.00. This will save you lots of time & Money. Will you get a Showcar in Return? No, far from it. Do you get what you pay for like runs, sags, orange peel, dry spray, light under rockers, paint on chrome,  Sometimes to one or all of these. Maaco is like playing Russian Roulette, Pull the Trigger, See if you get Lucky? LEON.

[Todd Wilson]

I tried to bypass all that convincing stuff by just saying take it to Maaco for $199.00. This will save you lots of time & Money. Will you get a Showcar in Return? No, far from it. Do you get what you pay for like runs, sags, orange peel, dry spray, light under rockers, paint on chrome,  Sometimes to one or all of these. Maaco is like playing Russian Roulette, Pull the Trigger, See if you get Lucky? LEON.

HAHA!  I did too. Implement Paint,WD40, Brake Cleaner and beer   can solve all problems!


Todd

[Lord Warlock]

Listen to these guys, while some of the advice is borderline, they are VERY accurate that you simply cannot do a 1st time paint job for less than it will cost for a maaco or budget paint shop can do the car for you.   Even if you really want to learn and do it yourself.  I've wanted to learn auto painting for 20 years, after doing industrial painting and sand blasting for 4 years I always figured it wasn't that hard.  But when I finally did do my first REAL paint job, it cost me over 2500 in materials alone, counting the guns, primer, base coats, clear coats, flake, stripe paint, sandpaper etc and then when i was done I wasn't satisfied with the initial results and decided to strip it down and do it all over again (about 5 times total-and i'm in the process of doing it again now, 3 years later)  You CAN paint a car with a 25 gallon tank, 3.5hp craftsman compressor though, it never ran out of air for the hvlp guns.  It won't however keep up with DA sanders or buffers though.  I had to buy high end electric sanders and buffers afterwards.  (the 5 paint jobs were done on another car of mine, not the charger...I wanted to learn what i was doing prior to starting work on the charger)  I've since painted several cars for neighbors, friends, and others that got referred to me based on the results of my previous attempts. 

When you paint in a garage, the paint will normally dry to the touch in about 2 hours, as long as the outside temps are in the normal paint range of near 70 degrees and you are using the right hardener and reducers.  A primer may dry in less than 20 minutes.  I usually allowed flash dry time between coats of about 40 minutes, sometimes longer, depends on what the paint directions say.

DO NOT try to use expensive custom paint for your first attempt, it is an expensive way to learn.  I used House of Kolor Medium Teal Pearl basecoat, 3 types of metalflake, and then House of Kolor Klear coat (which looks great if done right, but if done wrong goes real bad real quick) I quickly learned that going complicated on the first paint job was a mistake, and one that I won't repeat.  Pearls a pain to panel match, and ensure even coating.  As are metallics (as someone else stated) and doing a basecoat/clearcoat requires different guns for each.  I use a fairly cheap gun for primers, but use two fairly pricey ones (one for base coat, one for clears) for the real paints. 

For a first attempt, get a nice single stage enamel paint, even when using this, in a garage job, you'll still probably have to wetsand the surface when done (unless you have a sealed environment and no dust at all) and later polish the surface back out.  It is not something you can just whip out in an afternoon.  And no matter how sure you can do it, you will spend 5 times more effort than you remotely estimate for the project.  You will also waste alot of materials as you learn.  Take the advice of others, and just have a shop paint it for you.  If you don't have the space to do it yourself, don't have the guns already, nor a fairly decent compressor, moisture lock system, heat lamps, fans etc.  You'll be much better off, and come out ahead if you pay someone else to do it for you.  Only do it yourself if you really want to learn how, and have the space and time to spend doing a quality job.  After painting, sanding and buffing on cars; now I'm not satisifed with a 10 foot paint job, hell, i'm not satisfied with a 3 inch paint job, if I can see imperfections at 3 inches away, I'll spend a week working them out.  I've worn out both shoulders, and my back playing in my own garage painting cars, and though I can do some pretty nice work now, my first couple of attempts were nowhere near the quality I would want to show off to others, or even want seen driving down the road with.  And that is from someone who was familiar with the equipment to begin with. 

Good luck, we really are trying to save you from yourself.  It can be rewarding to say you did it yourself, but if your friends are laughing at your paint behind your back, sometimes its better to pay someone to do it right the first time.  I don't mind having to redo mine, and I have two garages of my own to work in, plus i kind of enjoy seeing a good result afterwards, but I'd easily pay someone 500 to do it for me if all i wanted was a decent coat of paint on the car.  Hell, I could pay someone 4k and still feel like i came out ahead. 

[plum500]

I was toying with the idea of trying the same thing -- first time paint job -- Plum Crazy metallic, in pieces, garage and all. Yikes.

I believe I've since come to my senses somewhat.

I'm going to do the inital body work/primer, full engine bay job, and some hidden areas (door hinges etc), and take the car, put back together minus bumpers and trim and such, to a shop for finishing body work and a paint job.

[Todd Wilson]

Listen to these guys, while some of the advice is borderline, You CAN paint a car with a 25 gallon tank, 3.5hp craftsman compressor though, it never ran out of air for the hvlp guns. 

You must have got lucky or had a unique quality paint gun. Most paint guns use 7-12 cfm depending on the unit.  Some good guns around 5cfm and some of the smaller good guns lower then that. There isnt a 110volt compressor out there with a cfm rating of much more then 6cfm and on a continuous duty wont keep up.



Todd

[Lord Warlock]

While I'll admit I'd love to get a 60 gallon compressor and a 5 or 6hp motor on it, my 25 year old compressor has held up very well over the years.  Most of the guns I have recommend 9-10cfm at the gun (hvlp) the main reason why it can probably hold pressure is that you rarely keep the gun going constantly  for more than a few minutes at a time, giving the air pump time to keep up pressure.  The only time I'd worry was when doing the whole side at one time.  Plus I'm working with a quart of paint at a time, not continuous painting out of a pot like a larger job would need.  I will admit up front that using a cheap gravity feed gun (non hvlp) to paint the house with, the compressor would not keep pressure longer than about 5 minutes of constant use.  Which is why I have other paint systems to use for utility painting.

Painting a panel at a time has never been a problem though.  The cars I've been working on are a bit smaller than the charger is.  It seems to hold up ok when shooting primer, which is the stage i'm at with the charger right now. 

As far as irritating things go, just wait till you spend a few months working the body out, painting the primer, sanding it smooth, then start laying the basecoat out and condesation drops of water form and drip on the surface as you spray.  Which quickly teaches you to install a moisture trap.  Or worse yet, the paint starts lifting due to insufficient surface prep, ruining a nice panel.  Or you don't give sufficient flash time between coats and get to experience the joy of runs and sags. 

I'm all for folks who want to learn how to do something and aren't afraid to try and do things themselves, its how most of us learned how to work on cars to start with.  But what many don't realize is that there is alot more involved in just a nice paint job than spraying primer and a basecoat.  And without the proper environment, even with good equipment, you'll still get dust nibs in the paint before it can dry.  In my case I can't paint with the garage door closed, or you'd be overcome by fumes in a minute or two even with a quality mask.  Even with plastic sheeting covering the entrance it still doesn't keep all contaminants out.  Really justifies the need for a real paint booth, and ventilation system.

[hemi-hampton]

If you were to insist on doing the car yourself because of the need to learn best advise that I could give is it would be best to have someone very knowledgable in auto painting to be there to help give you a helping hand. If you lived in the Detroit Area I'd help you but I'm guessing not. Someone to show you how it's done, the Do's & Dont's is what you need. Just my Opinion. Good Luck, LEON.

[73chargers4404]

It diffently takes time to pick up my problem is i worried to mutch ,just look at it this way if you screw up you can allways wet sand and shoot another coat.when i started i screwed up bad i had some wax and grease remover and it was in a can that looked just like the reducer my daumb ass mixed the wax remover in the paint and if the wasnt bas enough i shoot one coat on the car and realized there was something wrong it started to congel that cost cost alot of money and time to clean that shit off the car and re primer.the point im making take your time.

[Lord Warlock]

As far as paints go, it is usually a good idea to find a primer and paint that is compatible with each other.  I've found that transtar Y2K polyurethane primer works well as a primer for both acrylic single stage enamel paints, as well as the higher end House of Kolor premium quality pearls, silver metallic and black basecoats.  House of kolor has its own line of primers designed to be used with their paints, but it is by no means inexpensive. 

I can't comment on rayflex, never used it, although it does look to be very inexpensive paint from their website.  I spent that much on a quart of transtar acryilic enamel (including the hardener) and about 6 bucks for a quart of reducer at a local paint supply house.  I will warn you off of using the simple respirator included in the rayflex kit.  You need a much better quality breathing mask.  Preferably one with replaceable filters, and charcoal inserts.  I use a full over the face/dual filter mask when spraying.  I can usually do a car with 3 quarts of paint, which with reducers and hardeners usually equates to about 1.25-1.5 gallons of mixed paint.  You really need to put on a minimum of two good coats, I usually shoot for 3 coats of basecoat, 3 coats of clear.  The clear usually gets sanded between coats the basecoat does not- unless there is a problem area that pops up.  When shooting pearls you're not supposed to wetsand between color coats as it scratches the pearls, the same applies to metallics.  Make sure you get twice as much reducer as you need to paint, because you'll be using it to clean the gun, hands, and anything that gets overspray on it that should have been masked better. 

When using a reducer, there are different types that you can use in order to quicken the drying time.  Fast dry reducer, or medium dry reducer is usually fine for the high humidity environment here in florida.  It won't take the car 4 days to dry either.  It may take that long to cure, but the paint will usually dry in hours, not days.