Chrysler's first shot in the aero wars

[Ghoste]

I'm sure that most (many? some? a few?) of you have read the article in the current issue of Mopar Collectors Guide regarding the 66 Charger wind tunnel test model.  If you haven't, I'm sure you've seen pictures of it before.
Anyway, as I sit here this afternoon with nothing else to do, it occurs to me that the fastback Chargers were really Mopar's first entry in the aero wars.  The flush grille and fastback roofline were clearly meant to get superspeedway wins.  This test model is the proof and I further put it to you that not only was the Talladega an answer to the 500, but the Torino fastback was an answer to the 66 and 67 Charger.
Oh sure, lots of people will disagree with my examination of the evidence, but I still think I'm right.   

[tan top]

i see what you are saying about the shape of the 66 / 67 charger . it would be intresting to know the  aero dynamic drag numbers on the 66/67 grand national charger compared to the C500 and the opposition. because it is common knowlage that the 68 was an Aero dynamic disaster (sorry guys)   on the super speed way.

[69_500]

I'd agree somewhat. However the Charger in 66 and 67 wasn't designed solely for NASCAR. Where as the Talladega's, Cyclone Spoiler II', C500's, Daytona's and then later the Superbirds were all solely made with the intentions of running in Nascar. So a slight difference in their origional intents.

[Ghoste]

Unless you make the argument that the Talladega, C500 etc, were streamlined "versions" of cars which already existed and those cars were not intended for anything but mundane passenger car use.  If the fastback Chargers were designed to be nothing from the onset but a passenger car and that the streamlining was a coincidence, then there was no point in putting it in a wind tunnel.
Certainly, the 66 fastback was already on the market, but what is it they were trying to establish when they dropped that wooden model into the breeze in 66?  For whatever reason, the aerodynamics of the car at high speed became important to Dodge and that is why I would call it the first shot.
I don't imply that it is the same as a limited production homologation vehicle but I believe it may have been a styling exercise the race group saw as an opportunity to cheat the wind.
BTW, I'm not trying to initiate another of the tired "which generation is best" arguments.  The wheels started turning after reading the magazine article and I wanted to throw the idea out here and see what came back.

[myrt70]

Perhaps the reason for the wind tunnel test of the 66 Charger,had more to do with the issue of rear end lift that the Dodge drivers were experiencing at speed. My guess is that they were testing to collect data to solve that problem. The 66 Charger was the first car in Grand National racing allowed to run a rear spoiler. It was a low profile 3 peice bolt on peice. Chrysler had to make them available for the street versions,before they could use them on the track. I believe they were sold over the counter,and came with installation instructions. I do believe though,that Chrysler may have aquired a lot of valuable information,from these early windtunnel testing,that may have been applied to the 500 later on. Obviously if they were thinking areodynamics that early,than the design of the 68 Charger would have been changed from the begining,because it was a failure from an aerodynamic stand point.

[tan top]

 

[Ghoste]

Good points.  I've often wondered about the 68 shortcomings.  I look at the flip up at the end of the deck lid and it certainly looks to be designed with an eye towards reducing lift.  The tunnel back window was "in" at the time.  Note the 66-67 GM intermediates.  Why did they go from the flush grille to the inset version.  Just for appearance I suppose.
For whatever reason, they wanted the Charger to be the car when it looks like the Coronet would have been an easier choice to convert to NASACR use. 
Hmmm.  There are a number of interviews with the race group engineers AFTER the 68 season but it would be interesting to know more about the decisions made prior to that and what styling and marketing had to say about the various designs that came to sheet metal.

[69_500]

I'll give you this the 66-67 Chargers are definately an upgrade over the cars they ran in NASCAR prior to those years. Definately more streamlined.

[Ghoste]

Well, for Dodge anyway.  There was some guy in a boxy looking blue car that seemed to do okay at quite a few races.

[69_500]

Yeah but that was in 67 as well.

[Ghoste]

Hmm, you're right of course.  Seems to me, some guy in a fastback of some make or other took a lot of marbles in 66.  Although, I think all of his short track wins were a boxy car. 

[69_500]

You have me stumped who won a lot of races in 66 in a charger? Petty was running Plymouth, so was it Isaac?

[Brock Samson]

I've seen a B&W photo of an early '2nd Gen. Clay fullsize mock-up and without any details like lights showing it looks very much like a '68 Torino Fastback from the rear 3/4 view... i suspect the tunneled air catching grill was purely a styling concession and the rear buttresses were a trick from G.M. and Ferraris' play book whick gave the car a fastback look in profile but allowed decent vision and better packaging and structural traits... If the windtunnel P.H.D.s were given free reign, the inital second gen. would have cleaned up straight out of the box, but between dodges' own stylelists and connsessions to praticallity and the intro of new FoMoCo streamliners (The Torino/Cyclone)     
Dodge lost it's lead on the superspeedways. Ive never seen a Coronet on the track after '67.
I belive the Charger was the first america mass produced car to sport a spoiler and i suspect it's flush hidden headlights were to appear streamlined if not actually lower the drag... 
But Ma Mopar wasn't the only one with a steep learning curve, because the corvette, a definite streamliner had a horrific tendency to lift at speed due to it's shark mouth front end.
Whatever the case, between 1966 and 1970 a tremendous amout of speed was realized due to the new superspeedways and their tendancy to lift cars at speed which required a aerodynamic solution. 

[Ghoste]

You have me stumped who won a lot of races in 66 in a charger? Petty was running Plymouth, so was it Isaac?

David Pearson.

[69_500]

Learn something new every day.

[Ghoste]

Surprised I got you on that one Danny.  There was a NASCAR season before 1968 you know.

[69_500]

Hmmmm, I wasn't aware of that one. JK

Yeah I just don't pay much attention to the history other that for 1969 and 1970. Kind of fond of the A11 cars ya know.

I did know Petty won like 27 races in 1967, with 10 being in a row. And I know that the first race that they ran the 426 HEMI in, the HEMI's were 1-2-3 right? In 1964 at Daytona?

[pettyfan43]

Not only did David Pearson win races in a Fastback Charger, He won the Championship in 1966.

Hey Everybody, I'm a new member and just joined yesterday.  I own a dark green 66 Charger and a 73 Charger S/E.

Hope to get to know everybody here.

Chris

[Aero426]

Not only did David Pearson win races in a Fastback Charger, He won the Championship in 1966.

Hey Everybody, I'm a new member and just joined yesterday.  I own a dark green 66 Charger and a 73 Charger S/E.

Hope to get to know everybody here.

Chris

For the record, Pearson has stated that his preference was NOT the fastback Charger. 

[Aero426]

To go back to the top of the post,  it's been well documented that styling and the race group very little to do with each other.   Ask any of the principals on both the Ford and the Mopar race sides, and they will tell that the idea of cooperation from styling was laughable.  The fact that the '66 Charger is a fastback is because it is pleasant to the eye, and sporty -  not because they did it for success on the track.   

Now, having said that, it's also known that the aero guys had to make the best of what they had to work with, and looking for ways to get ahead - which leads to the aerodynamic development in the tunnel.   I don't believe that the time spent in the tunnel on these early cars was anywhere near what was done in '68-'69.

[Ghoste]

I agree with both of those points Doug.  My argument was the fact that they did wind testing on the 1st gen Charger at all made it the first round.

[Aero426]

And it probably goes back even a little farther at least to the '64 Mopars where they were running a special rear glass with a little more bubble to it.  I don't have the picture, but I remember Paul Goldsmith mentioning it when we saw him in Chicago in 2002.   I don't know that those were tunnel tested, but they certainly cheated them up in full scale. 

Possibly the ultimate Aero Warrior is the '66 Galaxie of Junior Johnson, the Yellow Banana car.  I don't have a pic handy, but it was EXTREME.

[hemigeno]

Possibly the ultimate Aero Warrior is the '66 Galaxie of Junior Johnson, the Yellow Banana car.  I don't have a pic handy, but it was EXTREME.

Here ya go... to say that car was extreme almost doesn't do it justice!  Rumor has it that Fred Lorenzen had to climb through the window into the back seat area, since the roofline was lowered too much to allow him to crawl through the front half.  It didn't look that cramped to me, but it's hard to say.

1.  This is a picture of the restored "Banana" car, now owned by Kim Haynes
2.  Picture of the car with Lorenzen & Johnson below
3.  Picture of a #26 "Banana" model (seems to be even more pronounced, but I had saved it anyway)
4.  The last picture is a regular Holman-Moody Galaxie/Fairlane so you can see the difference.

[Aero426]

Here is a quote from John Craft from a couple days ago regarding the Banana car. 

"...Junior did ask Ford aero engineers how he could make a Galaxie more like a Ford GT-and got their back door help. NASCAR only allowed the car to run one race in its "Banana" trim. The car was later rebodied as a (more) stock looking '66 Galaxie and race by Clyde Lynn. Truth be known all H&M '65 and '66 Galaxies were cheated up to some greater of lesser extent--they had to because they were aerodynamic bricks!. The Atlanta race where the Banana and Smokey's 15/16th Chevelle both ran was the impetus for the modern body template. In fact, according to Smokey, when Shorty Johns (Bobby's pugnacious Dad)made a stink at Atlanta about Smokey's Chevelle, he (Yunick) rented a stock Chevelle at the local airport and made a wooden template that fit the centerline of that car. According to Smokey, that same template fit his Chevelle like a glove but did NOT come close to fitting Bobby's car! Of course, the template in question probably did NOT measure exactly where on the chassis the body on Smokey's Chevelle sat---but that's another story. And Smokey had many stories to tell."  John Craft

Also the bottom pic is the smaller Fairlane which was unitized,  but NASCAR allowed Ford to graft the full frame Galaxie front stub onto it.  The Galaxie front clip geometry is still the foundation of the modern Grand National, err... Nextel Cup car today.

[Ghoste]

And Smokey certainly had his own big bag of cheater tricks.  But of course, his aerodynamic alterations were based on his own ideas and not by wind tunnel testing through General Motors.