Valve springs

[INTMD8]

CDR, yes that is what I said.

For the third time now, to compare to SR spring pressure. (as in, am I running more pressure on hydraulic stuff than some are on solid?) Should be easy to see that is a pressure comparison and not in any way me saying "put a hydraulic roller in it". The comparison was to say that I've ran those spring pressures and have had no issues with them wearing out.  Did one 10 years ago with 200 on the seat, mild lobes and in that amount of time and 20k miles it lost 5lbs on the seat.  Pretty mild turbo car that runs 9's.

I was hoping for a discussion, not an argument ( but then I get "asking for a friend" bullshit thrown in my face. )


If someone runs much lower pressures than what I'm stating on a solid roller I'm not trying to argue that it's impossible, I was merely posing a question

Completely agreed there are street and race profiles. When I asked cam motion to grind mine I asked for mild low lash lobes for street use.  Bob recommended 240-260 seat and 600-650 over the nose for that.   

Lobe lift and base circle was decided by first measuring lifter oil band location and oil gallery relief in the lifter bore as they are unbushed. It is now .100 away from uncovering the oil gallery on both the base circle and on the nose, no visible excessive oil flow at any position when priming the oil pump.  Lifters .9035-.9036  lifter bores .9052.

I made the decision to do this as I wanted to turn it 7500+.   

If guys are running solid roller setups with much less than say 200/500 do they still rpm 7k+ or is it for a limited rpm application?

If so and the spring pressure is very light, I would have to ask if it's worth going roller at all at that point as you could probably run even lighter springs for a lower rpm engine and have little/lower risk of wiping out a flat tappet.

[cdr]

CDR, yes that is what I said.

For the third time now, to compare to SR spring pressure. (as in, am I running more pressure on hydraulic stuff than some are on solid?) Should be easy to see that is a pressure comparison and not in any way me saying "put a hydraulic roller in it". The comparison was to say that I've ran those spring pressures and have had no issues with them wearing out.  Did one 10 years ago with 200 on the seat, mild lobes and in that amount of time and 20k miles it lost 5lbs on the seat.  Pretty mild turbo car that runs 9's.

I was hoping for a discussion, not an argument ( but then I get "asking for a friend" bullshit thrown in my face. )


If someone runs much lower pressures than what I'm stating on a solid roller I'm not trying to argue that it's impossible, I was merely posing a question

Completely agreed there are street and race profiles. When I asked cam motion to grind mine I asked for mild low lash lobes for street use.  Bob recommended 240-260 seat and 600-650 over the nose for that.   

Lobe lift and base circle was decided by first measuring lifter oil band location and oil gallery relief in the lifter bore as they are unbushed. It is now .100 away from uncovering the oil gallery on both the base circle and on the nose, no visible excessive oil flow at any position when priming the oil pump.  Lifters .9035-.9036  lifter bores .9052.

I made the decision to do this as I wanted to turn it 7500+.   

If guys are running solid roller setups with much less than say 200/500 do they still rpm 7k+ or is it for a limited rpm application?

If so and the spring pressure is very light, I would have to ask if it's worth going roller at all at that point as you could probably run even lighter springs for a lower rpm engine and have little/lower risk of wiping out a flat tappet.

I was hoping for a discussion, not an argument ( but then I get "asking for a friend" bullshit thrown in my face.
--------------- 
JUST to clarify ,,, if you knew me & we were not on a keyboard, you would have see me SMILE when I said asking for a friend , not fighting or arguing, maybe my old man Southern sarcasm/poking the bear is hard to pick up on through a keyboard,  INTMD8  I enjoy reading your post on here & other forms we are on, I in NO way intended to come off talking down to you.

[INTMD8]

I enjoy reading your posts as well CDR and I apologize if I misconstrued your meaning.

[Challenger340]

As a general 'rule of thumb' with Camshafts.... the faster we can whack the Valve open = the more power we can make ?
hence why...
Hydraulic Flat Tappet Cams being slower ramp speeds make less power than similar duration @ .050" Solid Flat Tappet Cams
and
.842" Diameter Solid Flat Tappet Cams being slower ramp speeds make less power than what can be done with .904" Lifter Diameter Flat Tappet Cams
and
Hydraulic Roller Camshafts being slower ramp speeds make less power than Solid Roller Cam profiles.... which we can then also distinguish between STREET Solid Rollers being slower ramps making less power than their much faster RACE Roller ramp speeds

The LEARNING curve here being....
always look to the "required" V/Spring pressure being called for by the Cam Manufacturer as an indication of the Lobe ramp speeds(how FAST the Valve is being whacked open).... as a determination of how aggressive the V/Springs need to be to maintain Lifters/Rockers and Valvetrain components "stable" through the intended rpm range so as NOT to damage parts !
and above therein....
lays the pitfalls of trying to run RACE Roller profiles and ramp speeds in the street environment ?
It's NOT the Cam... it's NOT the Lifters....
it is the V/Springs that typically GO AWAY with the 200+ Seat Pressures/500-550+ Rate V/Springs on the street.... which leads to stuff NOT staying 'stable' throughout the rpm range and damages parts ?

And on another Note....
even Flat Tappet Hydraulics with relatively LOW V/Spring pressures/slow ramp speeds can be made to run 'stable' at surprisingly high rpm's ?
One need look no further than "Marine" applications.... where we run extremely long seat to seat durations, sometimes approaching 280-290* with very low @ .050" durations of barely 200* and low-low "Lift" to maintain good Air/Fuel Velocity(remix) across the seat ?
That's "HOW" Marine stuff has at least some grunt to get outa the hole and still be able to carry 5,000+ rpm down the lake @ WOT(albeit diddly for peaks in between)

Again.... do whatever YOU feel is correct for your Engine ?
All I'm saying is what I have learned based in my experience..... and I will use as an example the fact that when I Machine/Build a 91 Octane friendly/pump gas 920 hp 572 HEMI/KB Blocks/Stage V Heads STREET Engines...  
I digress to 220-230# Seat/550 rate V/Springs.... but at only .641"/.617" Lift..... long duration.... with VERY STRICT Thermal Stabilization procedures for the V/Springs the owners MUST follow so as to preserve the Valve Springs by NOT rev'ing them COLD and therein V/Train stability on the street even within very limited mileages.

[INTMD8]

All good info     920 on 91 is bad ass.  I opted for less exhaust lift on my heap as well.

I always wait for proper oil temp before any real rpm.   Does not seem to be a common sense.  I cringe every time a customer picks up a car and goes from ice cold to a multiple gear rev limiter burnout within seconds of being started.  (explanation to not do so met with "well it's my car I'll drive it how I want").  Go right ahead but there will be consequences 

[c00nhunterjoe]

My old crane grind is 225/678. It is definitely a race cam. It is street driven but most people tell me im crazy anyway. 286@ 050, 324 adv, .750 lift. Doesnt clean up til 4000, shift at 7, traps about 7400 at 130 mph. I let it warm up, and i dont let it idle for long periods of time. My block is bushed and i run spray bars in the valve covers.

https://youtu.be/EmFknw4UmDY
https://youtu.be/wsQhqrPZg4c

[Challenger340]

My old crane grind is 225/678. It is definitely a race cam. It is street driven but most people tell me im crazy anyway. 286@ 050, 324 adv, .750 lift. Doesnt clean up til 4000, shift at 7, traps about 7400 at 130 mph. I let it warm up, and i dont let it idle for long periods of time. My block is bushed and i run spray bars in the valve covers.

https://youtu.be/EmFknw4UmDY
https://youtu.be/wsQhqrPZg4c

But YOU can do that !

The difference being WHO is running the stuff.... and YOU KNOW wtf and HOW to run that stuff  ? Attention to "details" is all important... You KNOW about your stuff and can take care of it !

the problem comes in....
when dumbass hillbilly's with NO CLUE what they are doing....only HEAR about a guy running a .750" Race Roller "no problems" ?   so they try it ?
The gonna "set the record" type fella's ?
disaster....
they literally speaking.... dunno how to even START their soon to be JUNK ?

[c00nhunterjoe]

All true. I was merely saying it can be done reliably. But you dont put it together like a typical street mill. The spray bar oiling and jesel rockers is key to mine living on the street along with the bushed lifter bores and oil hole placement to keep those rollers lubed. Even so, i dont let the rpm stay at idle too long just to keep the oil moving. Its still hard on parts. I will probably change valve springs end of next year regardless of function just because.

[Challenger340]

All true. I was merely saying it can be done reliably. But you dont put it together like a typical street mill. The spray bar oiling and jesel rockers is key to mine living on the street along with the bushed lifter bores and oil hole placement to keep those rollers lubed. Even so, i dont let the rpm stay at idle too long just to keep the oil moving. Its still hard on parts. I will probably change valve springs end of next year regardless of function just because.

Good point.... the often overlooked part of making Roller V/Springs living on the Street.... is good flow of Lifeblood cooling Oil running over the V/Springs,
which...
then leads into other 'debates' I won't get into here around Bronze Vrs Melonized Dizzy gears/High Vrs Std Volume Oil Pumps.... and a whole host of other things to be considered/factored into the RACE Roller Cam/V-Springs on the Street build ?

Again.... people listen, but sometimes only 'hear' what they WANT to hear based in their limited knowledge ?

[c00nhunterjoe]

Fwiw, i run a brass gear, std volume pump with a low pressure spring. She only holds 10-15 psi at idle, 60 at rpm. Again, not the norm, but i was looking for hp and thus why i dont let it idle for long periods.

[Challenger340]

Fwiw, i run a brass gear, std volume pump with a low pressure spring. She only holds 10-15 psi at idle, 60 at rpm. Again, not the norm, but i was looking for hp and thus why i dont let it idle for long periods.

And THAT is the best way NOT to overload/wear out the Bronze gear prematurely on the Street ! and PLENTY of Oil Pressure @ rpm !

You'd be amazed how many initially relate "melonized" Oil Pump Drive Gear as the answer..... then promptly load up with an HV Oil Pump, 20W50 Oil with .0015" Main and Rod Clrc....
and then call the Cam and melonized gears a DEFECTIVE POS when BOTH fail !

Sry for the rant.... but it's getting really BAD out there these days ?
I wish I'd recorded some of the calls I get here at the Shop.... take the time playing 20 questions trying to help out.... only to find out later that my 1st or 2 nd assumption was correct 15 minutes earlier ? they just didn't wanna admit it ?

[c00nhunterjoe]

Not much surprises me anymore. I get it all day everyday too.