Paint: Base coat/clear coat vs. single stage paint

[Charger-Bodie]

I never said it has to be be sprayed heavy , I said that it can . Your right I have far more experience spraying base clear because that is what is used in every progressional body shop I have been in . All the painters I have worked with use single stage for fast production, because the job is finished in 2 coats no need to put it on heavy . And usually used for jamming / engine bays ect .

If I have a cup of ketchup and I put in a teaspoon of water this ketchup is now translucent ?

Yes of course your purpose made translucent MID coat is needed to created the pearl effect of a white or red tri coat paint job . You are adding layers to create depth ! Something you cannot do with do with single stage paint process .

You put a black dot and try and cover it with your MID coat . It won't happen . Tell me a single stage that has this same property . Candy coats , tri stage , other special effect coating are all done with layers to creat the physical depth that you see !  Kind of like spraying base and then a layer of clear .

Someday you will understand and I just hope you will remember this thread. You said yourself that you don't have experience with single stage. Get some and report back .

[Andrada]

Single stage paint is somewhat translucent. It has translucent resin that floats to the surface when it's sprayed . This is very similar to older lacquer finishes that looked a mile deep. And if you really want a durable finish with a lot of depth cocktail clear into the single stage color.

this is true the resin for the paints luster floats to the top. i learned the game on single stage and once you scratch that off the top youll never get it back.  and you...  you dont know jack about single stage but your arguing about it.    if Jr. tried to spray a coat of single stage with a bright blue heavy metallic on a dark primer sealer say... black! (if he was retarded) try to cover that black primer with one coat of single stage. try to cover it with two. try to cover it with three.... ok fouteen coats later Jr got a pretty blue metallic the black is finally gone. but by now your paints on the floor because jr thought that bright blue metallic would cover that super dark black in two coats. even in spots Jr. tried to go back and fix it became darker in that spot than the rest of the panel but why?? its not traslucent?? oh snap! it is! single stage u gotta thin the hell out of,  and jack your pressure up around the 65 psi for it not to come out lookin like a fat chicks ass. if someone doest know how to spray single stage or know much about it, they probably don't have much experience as being a hotrod painter. look were all here to learn from eachother. but when im reading somthing that just plain wrong, well it bugs me to think somebody out theres gonna think its true and ruin someones else day when they try it.

[Charger-Bodie]

Just an FYI for everyone following this thread. I'm not saying there is anything wrong with modern base clear paint finishes. My point is that there are options. And depending on conditions and other factors there is not always just one choice .

[Canadian1968]

My arguments has always been toward the solid colors. As it was claimed a deeper finish can be achieved. Your saying that if I thinned out a solid red its going to give me a deeper appearance with a single stage?  And there is something to be said for diluting a color / metallic or not to the point that it is so thinned out that it will not cover to it designed application process. Was my comment about Single stage being 100% non translucent or that you can't thin it down to nothing,wrong? Ya ok maybe it was. Do I think a single stage will still cover better than a lot of B/C systems ? All day long

The blue paint over black scenario although a totally different argument as its a metallic as you stated and not solid which is what my argument was about.
I just sprayed my engine bay in a ford french blue Single stage Lesonal , over a light grey primer that had a few burn threw spots to black E-coat.  I used 2 coats....

I personally have never seen any paint product that has a TDS sheet that ask for any more than 3 coats.  Yes some base coat system recommend a value shade sealer ( grey scale ) or sikkens uses a colored sealer system, which I still find a grey scale works better for. But i have not seen a single stage that requires this. We would take solid reds and white and spray over whatever you want with no more than 3 coats .  Am I a single stage guru no, will I gain more experience spraying single stage (as I have been told I need to ? ) , probably very little because it is just not used commonly , if barely at all , regularly in the auto collision world.   I would think there must be a good reason for that ? Obviously there must be some advantage to a BC/CC system that includes time, money, final result, ease of use, ect.   Why alot of single stage paints are made for industrial uses or cheaper alternatives to the B/C system.  I have never seen a body shop mixing room with a toner system dedicated to single stage

It has its place yes, it had its time yes, Is there better products out there yes. If you want the top notch job what you going to use? I am going with BC/ CC personally.  If I want a nice daily driver I am going with BC/CC , if I want a winter beater, or derby car ok lets play with some S/S

[Charger-Bodie]

I just don't understand how someone can have such a strong personal opinion based on nothing more than theory and second hand assumption .


And with that. I am . Done . With this . Thread.."...........

[Troy]

To be honest, I truly detest absolutes (any, all, every, etc.). There are at least three different types of single stage paint that I know of - and I know almost nothing about paint. Each has a purpose and each results in a different finish. With some tweaking, there's a tremendous range of results. Then each brand has its own pros and cons. Base/clear I'm sure has its own issues and endless possibilities. It's also not perfect every time. For a beginner, a lot of things that seem easy to a pro are show stoppers so you have to take that into account for all of them. Sooooo, broad based statements don't help anyone.

Troy

[69 OUR/TEA]

Why does it seem like the majority of older car owners paint or have their cars painted basecoat / clear coat instead of single stage straight color? Is base/clear cheaper, easier to spray, better results? What are the advantages and disadvantages of basecoat /clear coat versus straight color? Is straight color hard to get?
Do the old formulas translate well to the base coat clear coat paint?

O.K , not to drag out this thread , but I will give my opinion to the original poster and comment to others . I have been on this forum since 2005 , and can say there is only a handful here that are worthy experienced body guys/painters . So not to act like another internet/keyboard expert on the trade , I do not work in a body shop , never have , but I have been doing paint/body since the late 80's , with most of my work being restorations . The paint that I have been using has been PPG . With that , have multiple friends that are PPG rep's , so I learned tons from them ( still do ) . One of which has left being a PPG rep for another career , and also owns his own custom paint/restoration shop that I help out  from time to time  on some pretty high end stuff , with most my help doing the sanding/buffing part .

John , in your case ,if you want a nice job, you have no choice , your car is T5 , BC/CC is your only option , no arguments , no disputes  !!!! And hopefully without engaging in another debate with the other painters here , all of your panels SHOULD be on the car where they belong for the car to be based to eliminate the risk of panels not matching . Then remove to clear if you don't want tape edges/overspray etc .
BC/CC is not cheaper , depending on how much of your car you are going to be painting ( trunk/eng bay , door and door jambs , bottom of hood/trunk lid , frame rails , bottom of car , etc ) , you could be at 1-2 gallons , which are  around $450.00 +/- a gallon  of PPG DBC . Then reducers , then the clear,reducer,and catalyst ( hardener) .
But don't think single stage is cheap either cause it's not . One gallon of PPG DCC 9300 ( black) , lists for $ 735.00 a gallon .
As far as spraying , a good painter will ( should ) be able to spray them both out to a " out of the gun " factory looking job .
One more thing to ad , clear vs. single stage , clear does have a better mar resistance , and durability/longevity  compared to single stage(pigment will fade easier) , BUT ........ BUT , if you sand/buff either of the two , the UV screening goes out the window .
Don't want to confuse you , cause it doesn't apply to you ,if doing a solid color , go single stage with clear cocktailed in after the first coat , now you have the best of both worlds , the coverage and protection , but again , sand/buff it , it's gone !!!!! I don't think any paint company ( Dupont , Glasrith , Sikkens ,PPG,etc ) will warranty it if it was .
As a couple had said , and I strongly agree , I would bet 99% of you could not tell either of them apart if sprayed out to the same texture(peel).
Also strongly agree , it IS all in the sanding/buff job of how the depth/shine is exhibited !!!! We have done numerous black cars , BC/CC , straight up single stage , and single stage with clear cocktailed in it . All sanded/buffed the same , it would be hard for you to tell which one is which !!!!! BUT , my eye , if we are talking " that thick , mile deep look " , to your surprise , the straight up single stage ( PPG DCC 9300 ) is the way !!!!!  Many will argue this .

Hope this answers your question .

[69 OUR/TEA]

For me it usually depends on whether its solid or metalic color. It's easier to make metalic look right with base.

ABSOLUTELY !!!!!!  Solid color = either straight single stage or cocktailed , metallic = BC/CC !!!!!

We prefer cocktailed single stage vs. straight up single stage PPG Concept is hard to keep a wet edge , even when using a slow reducer , with the clear , it gives you that little extra time to get from side to side of the car and not have dry  edges .

[69 OUR/TEA]

Besides the fact bc/cc is easier to blend in repairs should you have a mishap down the road, clear coats typically have better reflective properties than single stage once cured. That means with proper polishing you will get a deeper reflection, ergo a shinier looking paint job.

Clarify for people ,if you did have a mishap , I.E door ding , you still(should) be  clearing the whole panel after your base coat blend . If I got a ding in the middle of my B5 blue Charger 1/4 panel , repair , blend , then sand/buff the entire 1/4 again !!!!! I def would not be doing a clear melt in .

[69 OUR/TEA]

And last , doing BC/CC , PPG DBC is 1:1 mixture , one gallon base = one gallon reducer ( solvent ). That's before the clear ,DCU 2021 is 4:1:1, with solvent , goes on !!!! The least amount of solvent you can have , the better !!!!! But , yes , most of that solvent ( reducer) is the "vehicle" to get the paint from the gun to the panel , so all 100% of that solvent is not " crammed" into the paint .
Single stage is 4:2:1 when using DCX 9 or 61 hardener , and 4:1:2 when using DU 5 or 6 . Middle number being the solvent , so that's only 1/2 gallon of solvent doing a SS job .
Any good paint job , ( unlike what you see on TV how they rush thru them ) , chop it open with your first grit , leave it to breath day(s), then the next grit , leave to breath , etc , etc . Every time you " chop " it , put your nose to the panel , you can smell solvent escaping , this is what you want . Trapped solvent will " kill" the shine you are trying to achieve .

[Charger-Bodie]

Very well put  Paul!  I agree 100% with every word you just typed.

[Dino]

You guys remember the old cellulose paints you had to cut and buff?  Man it looked like you could crawl into that paint it looked so deep!

It's been over 10 years now since I painted professionally.  The last time I painted with a gun was a few months ago using SPI paints and whatever the cheap PPG ownd paint is.  It did the job but the quality was nothing like the good stuff I used to use.  Of course I wasn't using a $500 gun either.   

[69 OUR/TEA]

You guys remember the old cellulose paints you had to cut and buff?  Man it looked like you could crawl into that paint it looked so deep!

It's been over 10 years now since I painted professionally.  The last time I painted with a gun was a few months ago using SPI paints and whatever the cheap PPG ownd paint is.  It did the job but the quality was nothing like the good stuff I used to use.  Of course I wasn't using a $500 gun either.   

Omni

[Dino]

No not that one.  I had to go look it up.  It's Shopline.

[hemi-hampton]

I think Shopline replaced Omni.  LEON.

[Brock Lee]

You guys remember the old cellulose paints you had to cut and buff?  Man it looked like you could crawl into that paint it looked so deep!

I still use it almost daily! Not on cars though. I have been using it for 22 years. It has become a specialty finish. The cellulose finishes you get today have UV blocking agents, advanced plasticizers, etc.. that what you spray today is more like what used to be acrylic lacquer. They also pulled the antifreeze trick on us and almost all brands come pre-thinned, for the same money. A gallon of high quality nitrocellulose that cost me $40 in the early 90's now costs me $120, pre-thinned..so it is like getting half as much.

[Mike DC]

        
That pre-thinned trick is a bitch.  Not only the price issue but it removes your ability to thicken it up if you wish.





Base/clear is such a PITA during resprays that I think it cancels out the gains during the initial spray.  BC might not be as popular if we all drove these cars enough to guarantee a few repairs over the years. 

[charge69]

I know nothing about paint but knew I wanted to have mine painted with single-stage paint.  My painter was more familiar with using SS .  He knew what ratio to mix the Reducer and Hardener to get a nice even coat on the Charger and we painted everything (top, bottom, inside, both sides of the hood and trunk lid, inside of doors and door jams,  ALL of it) and wet-sanded every part that would normally be seen when finished.

  The paint store manager called headquarters somewhere in Illinois to get the original formula for R6 Red and said he really was not supposed to sell it to us as it was now listed as an industrial paint! He sold it to my painter as they were good friends but it was $600.00+ a gallon and he used 4 gallons on the Charger to get it right!

No metallic in this paint, just a lot of wet-sanding and buffing along with the right final coat (not a wax, a polyurethane finish) to get it right. In person, it is a beautiful paint job and I defy anyone to say it would look better with a BC/CC paint job.

[Canadian1968]

Nice looking car ! Turned out very nice

[charge69]

Thanks for the compliment.  A LOT of work went into getting it where it is today!

[Charger4404spd]

Single stage painted in 1994. 

[charge69]

Awesome car, Charger4404spd !!  Obviously well taken care of !

[hemi-hampton]

The last Mopar I sprayed a few months ago, A Black 69 Hemi Roadrunner was in Single stage. Mainly because thats what the Customer requested. I prefer Base Coat Clear Coat myself. LEON.

[charge69]

That '69 RR turned out really nice !   To each his own on the type of paint. BC/CC usually turns out to actually be too shiny for my taste.

[Kern Dog]

For me it usually depends on whether its solid or metalic color. It's easier to make metalic look right with base.

Every car that I paint gets some amount of dust or bug in it. This requires me to sand the flaws out. You cannot sand a metallic single stage without disrupting the grain on the metallic particles. I often spray single stage with non metallic paint but prefer to clear coat over metallic.