Opinions

[moparchris]

Just throwing this out as a conversation topic; not trying to start WWIII.  I just read an email from Hemmings Motor News that a Duesenberg roadster sold at Mecum Houston over the weekend for the bargain price of $500,000.  "Hell, Chris who cares" you say??  Well it was openly advertised as a "Twice re-bodied car."  It was re-bodied the 1st time in 1946 and then it burned down to the frame in the 1960's and was re-bodied again in the 1970's as a roadster (I think) with a Supercharged engine.
Why is this o.k. ( re-bodied vintage cars) but it is taboo to re-body a 1968 Hemi-Dart that was rolled at a drag-strip?
What do you guys think??

[Redbird]

With a Duesenberg, a customer bought a frame with all the associated running gear; engine, brakes, wheels, steering wheel and a manufacturer's identification tag, all assembled by a recognized manufacturer-likely not your cousin. A customer then could take that assembly to a coachbuilder, who would build a custom body-we are not talking a standard Model T here. Someone was buying a body completely custom built for them. This was a symbol that someone had achieved a financial level few in the world would ever achieve.

By the late 1930's some owners had new bodies made, for their own reasons. This was done more so in the 1950's and on. They wanted a more modern style, a convertible instead of a limo, a limo instead of a convertible.

Today a re-bodied Duesenberg sells for a percentage of an original bodied car that had a desirable original body style. In this case $ 500,000. At the ACD club, believe me they know an original from a re-body.

[hemi68charger]

... In this case $ 500,000. At the ACD club, believe me they know an original from a re-body

With that said, and it makes total sense. Based on what I see Dues' for, $500,000 is a 3rd to 4th of price.... I think the overall ratio of the two cars compared would be about the same....

Just my 2 cents....

[moparchris]

I think my biggest concern/question is from a legal standpoint.  It is illegal ( as my understanding) to "re-body" a car.  Why does it seem to be o.k. with the older vintage cars but against the law to re-body a "newer" car?  Is there some kind of law stating that cars built before a certain year are not bound by the same standards?  If so, is this a date that moves i.e.  you can do this to a 1950 or older car this year, but next year it moves to a 1951???

[Aero426]

In addition to what Redbird said,  some classics like Duesenbergs had separate winter and summer bodies.  Remember that money was no object with these cars.    These cars in general had a somewhat short shelf life and fell out of favor in the 1940's.   Some lost their wood framed bodies as time went on, or the car became a derelict (yes, hard to believe).    Yet as time rolled on, they were too significant to not restore.  

In the case of a full classic,  the body is a COMPONENT of the car.   But it is not the full IDENTITY of the car as you have a chassis number and engine number.   It is accepted that 'these sort of things happen" on pre-war classics  produced by hand in limited numbers.    On a 1960's Mopar, the mass produced body is more or less the identity of the car.   There is no frame.    Of course, you can rebuild what you have around the cowl and existing unibody structure that you have.   You just can't flat out transfer an existing VIN onto a another unibody that had a previous identity.    Sometimes, those lines are blurred.  

Nonetheless, while it may be accepted to rebody a full classic, there certainly is a value penalty for doing so, compared to a really "pure" car with no complicated stories and continuous history.   In the case of the Mecum Duesy,  the disclosure of the two rebodies indicates a very complicated history, and the price reflects that.  

[Troy]

According to Wikipedia, VIN numbers were first used in 1954. Laws regarding VIN tampering couldn't have existed prior to that. As we know, even if the car itself had a VIN, not all the parts had a matching stamp (engines, transmissions, etc on Mopar didn't have them until late 1968ish and other makes a few years later). I know it's common to mix-n-match parts on old trucks because it really doesn't matter. Obviously, the rarer cars with known history will bring more money. Questionable cars (even legal ones) will bring a lot less. The more expensive "coach built" cars would certainly be easier to track through time than grandpa Bob's Model A.

The laws were primarily written to deter fraud around stolen cars and parts. The collector car hobby with it's skyrocketing prices have given shady individuals incentive to "tweak" the pedigree of a car to increase their profit. There are legal ways to swap VINs - but they create a paper trail which ultimately hurt the car's value.

Troy

[BROCK]

There are also the 'rarity factor' & the 'who handled the restoration factor'.  When only the cowl of an E body Hemi Convertible morphs into a whole show worthy car in the hands of a notable auction house owner....it brought pretty
good money.  It's all a gamble to me.  I don't run in the circles these guys do & don't want to buy their stuff either. 

As for the Duesenberg, Bugatti, Hispanio Suza, Rolls Royce, Bentley, Packard, Rollston, Cadillac etc prewar Classics
......a significant part of the current value always goes to the coach builder.  I believe Saoutchik brought the best
prices for a nice time most recently. 

A modern coach builder on a unitbody car?  Bill Hines, Alexander Bros, Creative???  It's still in a name.  Now it's
Stroppe, Foose etc.  As always:  it hurts value while the artist is alive.

[rainbow4jd]

Starting WWIII...

First, there's MR. FEAR.... he(she) fears that someone with a re-bodied car will get huge bucks when they sell their car!    He just doesn't think its fair that HE (or she) either can't afford to do the same or doesn't believe it should be done (i.e. "my morality should be your morality, and I'll kill you if you disagree").... MR. FEARS motto is "protect the hobby" and fights for the rights of others to know they're over paying for a cheap, knock off, NON-original car!   They don't believe in either a "fool and his money" or "buyer beware" - they are a champion for truth, justice, and original bodied cars that don't have TOO much restoration work done to them.   MR. FEAR's greatest fear is that someone will think their own car is a "re-bodied" - the greatest insult of all.

Second, there's MR. ORIGINAL...  this person is lucky enough to have an un-restored original that still has the original air in the tires and he captured the initial startup exhaust in a mason jar.   It doesn't matter that the Mona Lisa has been restored, or the Sistine Chapel has been repaired... only an original is good enough.   All others should be worth less and it really gripes his (her) butt that restored cars are selling for more than unrestored.   Naturally, if you are considering a re-bodied car - you are slime in their eyes.

Third is MR. I DON'T GIVE A DAMN...   this person is generally the bane of MR. FEAR and MR. ORIGINAL because they pay their money to get what they want and frankly don't give a rats patootie about the "integrity of the hobby".    They're like... "Hey, I don't tell YOU how to spend your money, mind your own damn business!"   Naturally, MR. FEAR and MR. ORIGINAL are irritated that a) he's got the money to spend and b) even MORE ticked off that there are folks out there who will happily pay big bucks for a rebodied car and enjoy it now - rather than wait the 25 years for MR. ORIGINAL or MR. FEAR to consider parting with theirs.  Say what you want about MR. I DON'T GIVE A DAMN but they don't give a damn.

Fourth is MR. I DON'T CARE.... (which is generally me by the way)    If you are happy either creating or buying a re-bodied car - who am I to rain on your parade?  We have enough negativism in the world today without me adding more.   I'm not any less or more happy about my own car based on what someone else does to theirs.      I try to get along with everybody - and I am just happy there's interest in these old sleds, and figure that the "free market" will handle all the money issues.   If someone "misrepresents a car" - that's for the courts to decide between the buyer and the seller - it really isn't my business.

Finally there is MR. I WISH....  who wishes they had been alive in the old days, or wishes they could afford a nice original or restored one now, or even have the opportunity to restore one themselves.   Most of all they wish they could just have the chance to drive one and smile at it sitting in their driveway.   They''d love to have an original or restored one but know its highly unlikely that will ever happen.   Therefore, they are perfectly content to create a clone or should they be lucky enough to find an old title and maybe a VIN tag - they'd sell their first born to try and put it back on the road - and if that means a re-body they figure that's all they can do, so it doesn't bother them.   Incidentally, MR. I WISH  and MR. I DON'T CARE get along really well, and they don't mind hanging out with MR. I DON'T GIVE A DAMN on occasion.    They pretty much stay away from MR. FEAR and MR. ORIGINAL figuring "why throw gas on a fire" - but will likely drink a beer with them until the conversation turns to their pet peeve issue.

All in all - none of the MISTERS are bad people - their just opinionated and passionate.   But essentially, the hobby is a religion to some folks.   If you don't believe like they do - you're going to burn in hell (presuming they believe that infidels burn in hell metaphorically).   Like any fanatic - they're best handled in small doses.

There -- did I forget anyone?




PS before you respond and crucify me for my stereotypes - Google "sarcasm" - its a form of humor!

[moparchris]

Thanks for the background on the build process of the coach-built cars.  Since they are not really my cup of tea, I didn't realize some of the background and why it's different when the get re-bodied.

[73rallye440magnum]

I was fortunate enough to work on a number of pre-war American and European classics when I was restoring cars.

The chassis number is the more significant identifier. As others have already mentioned, coachwork was subcontracted.

http://lcars.com/pages/project_details.php?id=7