Hard Cranking 440 - I'm about to bail on this old girl.

[mindless1]

Hey folks.  I'm having some terrible issues with my 69 440 charger starting hard as hell when cold.  It cranks, and runs down the battery before it fires, unless I doctor the carb with a little fuel, have a fully charged battery, and hold my mouth just right.  I know that it can take time to pump fuel up to the carb if it has sat for a while, but by the time that happens my battery is about out of juice.  I'd estimate on a brand new, fully charged battery, I get about 20 seconds of cranking before the battery is dead (combined 20 seconds, not continuous)

I have had to replace an awful lot of batteries in this thing over the years, probably from routinely running them down in this manner over and over.   Granted I don't get it out and drive it as much as I should - I'm lucky to get out with it once or twice a month.  I've even purchased a solar powered trickle charger that will tender the battery while I'm ignoring the poor girl, but that seems to have been only slightly helpful.   Honestly, having to nurse fuel in the carb, jump it, ether it, trickle charge it, etc - is getting old to the point I'm about to dump this baby I've had for 20 years.  (I know, that is even hard for me to say).  But getting time away from work and family to drive/work on this thing is pretty crappy when I have to plan a solid hour just to get her started each time.

I replaced the entire harness with a Painless unit a year or so back, mainly to try to resolve this issue (and I did incorporate many of the improvements/bypass stuff I learned on this forum).  It's a basically stock 440 (.60 over), 727, exhaust manifolds, 10.5 to 1 compression, stock 750 carb, running the mopar orange box ignition.  The engine was reclaimed from a 68 new Yorker, rebuilt in 1997, and has less than 5k miles on it since then.  The hard start behavior has basically always been present.

Now, I'm going to replace the battery (again) battery cables, starter relays, and the starter.  I can gather the various volt/amp readings at different points if anyone is intrigued.  Adjusting timing also never seemed to affect this behavior, though admittedly I am piss poor at timing.

But, I've read that an early 90's ram 360 starter will work as well - my question is if there is a benefit to doing so?  I do not run headers so clearance is not an issue - I'm only interesting in swapping with something other than stock if it will crank any harder, longer, better, etc. 

Cheers and thanks...

[70 sublime]

Was the starter rebuilt when you did the motor ?
I would think you should get more than 20 seconds of crank time out of a battery
Has it always acted like this since the motor job or is it getting worse ?

[comet_666]

Do you have an electric fuel pump?

[justcruisin]

You should get way more than 20 secs out of a fresh battery. Nothing wrong with the Chrysler starter but in saying that a Nippon denso based starter with a good HP rating will see the engine crank more briskly. Providing you have good cylinder compressions and the car is garaged you shouldn't have a starting issue. After a couple of weeks without starting I find I need to prime the carb for an instant start. Things to check are battery cable connections both at the battery starter and engine earth, clean and tight, not just tight, check that you have a good spark, check for a good earth at the control box (possibly substitute the box for a known good one) and distributor, good conductivity of your HT leads with no tracking issues. Clean spark plugs and correct timing are obviously important. If you can only crank for a short time with a new battery you may have an issue with a bad starter or voltage drop, could even be a timing issue, tight engine or water in the bores.
For what it's worth my 440 has 190 psi cranking pressure with the original starter and cables, 18 degrees initial timing and it cranks with ease.

[mindless1]

The starter was replaced when it was rebuilt, and possibly another time between then and now (my recollection of all the swaps I've done since 97 is a bit hazy...)   I believe it has always started very hard - as to if it is getting worse I currently would say yes, but it is a colder time of year aaaaand the current battery is probably taking a dive again.  I need to research how to measure cranking pressure, and if feasible for me I will test and share that as well.

It is a mechanical fuel pump.

(Still interested to know if the Ram starter cranks harder!)

[polywideblock]

who rebuilt your motor ? could it have "tight " clearances on the rings/bore   making it hard to turn over until it warms up and they increase slightly

[HPP]

(Still interested to know if the Ram starter cranks harder!)

Not sure what you mean by harder but it does spin them faster with less effort. The new starters produce 1.9 hp with a 73 amp draw. Old starters specs are around 1.5 hp at 110 amps.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PKsZvTDHij8

I surmise you have two separate issues. First, your old starter is pulling a lot of amps and turning over slowly which quickly drains the battery. Also, with todays fuel and their rapid evaporation rate, your carb is loosing all its fuel and cannot be replenished in time before your battery and starter die.

So, swap to a newer starter and add a small supplemental electric fuel pump to your mechanical unit to allow the carb to fill before cranking. Once I did these things to my truck, hard starting hot/cold/or after extended storage was never a problem again.

[mindless1]

Man I love this forum.  That video is very helpful - and I will be switching to a newer model starter (as soon as I get done putting away a whole hell of a lot of Christmas lights...)
I also did some research and found this article about why the newer ones are indeed better, I thought it was worth sharing:
http://www.hemmings.com/mus/stories/2005/11/01/hmn_feature6.html

For posterity sake, I've found these two model numbers of late model starter that both seem to use the new 'permanent magnet' design versus the old design which is the 'wound field' design.  Still looking at what the difference is besides about 30 bucks - but it seems both will be a big improvement.
17466 - this one is for a 93 dodge d150 318
17573 - this one is for a 98 dodge b1500 318

I have thought about adding an electric fuel pump, but feared based on reading some articles here that it might add some additional complications as well.  So I'm going to start with the starter....
Is there a fuel pump that is made for that sort of 'priming' use or is it just a small volume/cheap pump that I mount inline?

Thanks!

[mindless1]

Oh and as to who rebuilt the engine - I did not, instead I paid a pretty reputable engine shop to do so back in 97.  They were a good outfit- but it's been a long time and I've moved a long ways away, so I'm guessing there's no real way to know how tight it was built without tearing it down which would be a big decision!

[Pete in NH]

Hi,

I too, would suspect the starter if it is turning over very slowly. Even the older Chrysler gear reduction starters turn over the engine at a good clip. A shorted turn in the armature windings will turn very slowly and draw huge amounts of current. I would try a new starter and make sure the battery cables are clean, tight and not corroded. The battery acid from old battery's has a way of getting into old cables and corroding them under the insulation. My 71 383 with a big group 27 battery and original starter turns over quite nicely at a good speed.

I think HPP is right on target on today's fuels. If they sit a while the stuff tends to go away. This makes it even harder for you compromised starter.  You mentioned timing, get a timing light on your 440 and get it set up correctly. Ask for help if you need to.  Also, the choke on the carb. should snap closed when the engine is cold and you depress the pedal to the floor to set it. Then push it half way down to start the car.

Good luck and let us know what you find.

[six-tee-nine]

How good is your ignition. plugs and wires. Still runnng points?

When cranking you already have a low voltage output from your battery since it drops down to something like 8 volts. If you have a weak battery that will be even less. If you use old worn plug wires and bad points you get a very weak spark. Then since you dont drive alot your fuel quality wont be top shelf after a while.

Just saying lots of small things can add up to one larger problem. Not saying you need to replace your ignition system.

Get a new starter first because with a new good battery you should get more cranking time than 20sec. In the future disconnect the neg terminal if you store the car for longer periods, or get a battery switch, they  are cheap and easy to use without tools. And they are a good Insurance for 40 year old cars.
That way even when you tender the batt it cant discharge.

if you then go for a drive, buy one of these plastic sqeeze bottles with a straw (no clue what to call them), pop the hood, get the lid of the air cleaner off the carb and full the bolws of the carb. You'll be out of your garage alot faster than now even if it takes a few minutes of wrenching.
Cars from 40 years ago dont start like a modern fuel injected car after a month.

[don duick]

I also had hard starting problems when I had an orange ECU. When I switched to a MSD 6A it now starts instantly sometimes I don't even hear the starter turn. I have a mini starter don't know what brand bought in on Ebay for $55. MSD also gave me a noticeable improvement in performance. Orange ECU is junk.