440 engine issues

[brianbob]

Hi guys: 
A little history:
A couple of years ago I was able to acquire my matching numbers 440 minus the intake/carb/distributer for my 69 Charger that was in a 65 Coronet (long story).  I was never able to see the engine running except in a youtube video but the owner of the Coronet said it ran good.  It was rebuilt several years ago by a reputable engine builder in our area.  This year I finally got around to getting it running.  Because of budget constraints and previous knowledge I had of the engine, I decided not to open it up and just go with it.  I do have some paperwork that sometime after the original rebuild someone put a Comp 21-306-4 cam in it with 270 duration and I believe 470 lift.  I put a CH4B intake, new Edelbrock 800 AVS carb, Chrysler electronic ignition, and a set of repop factory plug wires on it to keep it as stock looking as possible. 
My problem:
After getting it running, it seems to have a chronic miss at idle and even at higher rpms I can't seem to figure out although it has very good throttle response.  Also, the engine seems to shake too much.  Can't seem to isolate it to one cylinder by pulling plug wires.  I'm also having an issue with timing.  If I set the timing via the vacuum method I can get 16-17 inches and timing is around 15 degrees but the starter will not crank it over after it is shut off unless the timing is retarded to something close to TDC.  I've verified that the harmonic balancer hasn't slipped with a piston stop tool.  I've checked for vacuum leaks with carb cleaner and plugged the brake booster and can't seem to find anything there.  I pulled the plugs which were all uniformly blacker than they should be and did a compression test. All except 3&8 were between 145-150.  #8 was 135.  #3 was 115.  Both came up to 145 with a little shot of oil.  While the number 3 cylinder concerns me, shouldn't I still be able to get the timing set better?  It almost seems like to me the that the timing chain is one tooth off.  Anyone have any ideas?

[BSB67]

Nothing jumps out to me.  Here are a few initial thoughts:

1)  Double or triple check the cranking pressures.
2) It should crank over fine with what you have.  Possibly a battery, cable, or started issue.
3) The spray test is unreliable IMO for finding leaks.  Put you hand over the carb while running and if the idle goes up before it goes down, you have a leak.  Not uncommon for the old Edelbrock intakes to leak at the head sucking air and oil from under the valley pan.   You can tell for sure by pulling the intake and looking at the runners.
4) Do you have a PCV and is it hooked up properly?
5) Could be valve timing.  In my experience, it is commonly blamed, but rarely ever found to be the actual problem.
6) Check the continuity of the plug wires.

[brianbob]

Thanks for the reply.  Not sure what you mean by checking cranking pressure but it doesn't seem to me to be starter/battery related (I have a new battery and cables installed and seems to crank over fine if the timing is backed off).  I have factory valve covers with a factory pvc setup (doesn't seem to be a problem).  Interesting point about the old Edelbrock manifold (bought it used so I don't know any history on it).  If it's leaking in the valley area near #3, could that be contributing to the low compression on #3 cylinder?  Also, I've noticed that the exhaust manifold isn't as hot in the #1-#3 area as everywhere else.  That could account for the roughness I'm experiencing but shouldn't I still be able to set the timing at 12-15 degrees and have the starter crank the motor over just fine?  I have checked the continuity of the plug wires and nothing stands out there. 

[BSB67]

Double or triple check the cranking pressures = Compression test.

Just about everything I've owned has a had a cranking compression of 180 to 210 psi, and 18° to 25° initial timing.  Never had a problem cranking them over.  145 psi and 15° initial I think is less than the 1967 factory 440 w/o CAP.

Leaking intake will not effect the compression.

[69wannabe]

I agree about the starting issue. It shoud start fine anywhere between 15 and 20 degrees BTDC. Mine is set on 18 and it starts great there. If you starter has worn brushes it will drag and not start properly. I would pull the valve covers and check out the valve train for a possible worn cam lobe. Pull the covers and the plugs and spin the engine over and watch to see if there is a rocker that isn't moving as much as the others. May have a possible burnt valve also with the compression being so erratic.

[c00nhunterjoe]

The 115 cylinder would worry me. If oil brings it up to 150, the bottom end is shot. My over cammed 383 cranks in the high 180's to 190's.
No crank unless at tdc is VERY fishy. Check the starter draw, verify grounds, check voltage drop through the positive cable. Im at 25+ initial with no hot crank problems.

[brianbob]

I think I will pull the intake next week as BSB67 has suggested and take a look at the runnners.  That will also allow me to take a look at the cam.  I will report back with results.  Also here is a link to the youtube video of my engine that I acquired shortly after this video was shot in a 65 Coronet.  Not sure if will help diagnose anything but it sure idles much smoother in the Coronet than in my Charger. I do have the starter installed that is cranking the engine over in the video. 


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v99onUQPTJM   

[BSB67]

I think I will pull the intake next week as BSB67 has suggested and take a look at the runnners.  That will also allow me to take a look at the cam.  I will report back with results.  Also here is a link to the youtube video of my engine that I acquired shortly after this video was shot in a 65 Coronet.  Not sure if will help diagnose anything but it sure idles much smoother in the Coronet than in my Charger. I do have the starter installed that is cranking the engine over in the video. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v99onUQPTJM   

Pulling the intake is pretty easy, but the I don't think that the hand over the carb has ever let me down. 

[brianbob]

Ok. I'll try covering the carb with my hand and see what happens. 

One other thing I forgot to mention concerning the timing was that initially after getting the engine installed and started the timing was closer to the 15-20 degree numbers discussed here and had no problems starting the car.  After checking several things because of the rough idle I discovered the reluctor in the distributer was in the small block position.  Years ago I had disassembled the distributer to put different advance springs in and must have got it installed wrong.  I really couldn't tell much difference with the way it ran in either position but after doing some research and verifying it with a known bb distributer it is now in the big block position.  But that is when I started getting the wacky timing readings. 

[fy469rtse]

Aha , usally it something we do ourselves ,
so back track , examin what and how you did , because thats what made it run badly

[brianbob]

Just to clarify.  It has never run correctly in my car (in my opinion), so what do I back track to?   If the timing reads more correct with the reluctor in the small block position and I have a 440 that would seem to me to be a problem also wouldn't it? Yes, I'm pretty sure it is something I've done myself with one of or a combination of the three components I've added (intake, carb, and distributer), but as I said in the previous post I couldn't tell any difference with the way it ran with the reluctor in either position (still acts like it's missing).  The vacuum leak under the valley pan is the best theory I've heard so far for my rough running issue so I'll investigate that first and see what happens. 

[fy469rtse]

Sorry , I thought you ment it ran better before, yes hand over the intake, mixture screws will have no effect

[fy469rtse]

Just watched the you tube video, what happened when you slow the idle down ?
I couldn't hear anything amiss ,
By the way very very nice car 

[c00nhunterjoe]

Engine sounds fine in the video. Perhaps a video of it currently might help? It has a nice lopey idle to it.

[brianbob]

Held my hands over the carb this afternoon.  Engine did not speed up but wanted to die right away.

[BSB67]

Held my hands over the carb this afternoon.  Engine did not speed up but wanted to die right away.

Good.  Easier than pulling the intake.  You can put a check in the box on that one., and move to the next item...

[fy469rtse]

1 down , two to go ,
with timing light on it , ? does it jump around ,
whats under the rocker covers , ? stock arms, recheck compression again
quick easy check , do you have a known good carby to swap on , that will quickly elininate that point,
then you will now if attention to carb needed , rebuild

[brianbob]

Rocker arms are factory pieces. Yes, it does jump around a little with timing light on it.  I drilled a hole above number 1 in an old distributor cap and ran the timing light on it.  The rotor isn't exactly centered on the distributor terminal (stays off to one side even when advancing the throttle).  Timing marks do move on the damper.  The carb is new but not saying there couldn't be something wrong with it.  It seems to run very (eye burning) rich at idle and as I stated in the OP the plugs are blacker than they should be.  Turning the idle adjustment screws in will kill the motor but it won't smooth out the idle.  I do have an old AVS I could try.  It does seem to run a little better with the reluctor in the small block position which leads me to believe it is incomplete combustion due to ignition/timing/phasing problem. 

[69wannabe]

What kind of distributor are you running?? The firecore distributors are alot better than the old mopar dizzy's!!!

[brianbob]

I've got a Mopar electronic distributor with orange box but at this point I'm about ready to try anything including going back to a points distributor as I was out in the shop today and not sure what I did but now I can't even get the car started.  May have flooded it initially when I forgot to hook up the electrical plug and saturated the plugs. Enough frustration for today.  Maybe give something another try tomorrow.

[polywideblock]

how old is the orange box       

some of them were dodgy  ( late 90's early 2000's I think ) and had the coming and going  misfire  troubles you describe

[fy469rtse]

Yes I had a couple of those orange mopar box's go bad on me with no warning at all ,
Excessive idling while running rich while you try to sort things out,
Fouled plugs won't help

[fy469rtse]

The 800 AVS could be a bit big for a stock 440,
I would get the jetting kit and jet it down some , sounds like a combination of things
How does it go ? Under load ,  any backfire when you back off , any pinging when accelerating
Sounded good in the video,

[brianbob]

Well, a friend of mine showed up late last night to listen to the car. He insisted I put a fresh set of spark plugs in, so we did.  It started right up and ran fine with no miss!!  I was a little embarrassed but relieved that that fixed it. 

We did notice that when the driver's side idle adjustment screw is turned all the way in the engine still runs and when we pulled it completely out the engine actually idled a little better so it must be sucking some fuel from somewhere else.  The other idle screw worked like it should.  My buddy had brought along an Edelbrock 750 (I think) he had and we tried that.  We had both idle screws completely in on his carb to get the best idle.  We thought the car ran better with my 800 on it.  I guess I'll be opening up my carb to see what's going on there.  I have new fuel lines and a new tank along with the new AVS carb so hopefully it will be something as simple as a piece of debris causing the problem.

It looks like I'm finally heading down the right path.  I want to thank everyone for their helpful suggestions.  I think the reluctor in the small block position was a contributing factor to the misfire and a rich idle mixture on one side fouling a few plugs obviously didn't help either especially since the car isn't on the road yet and basically just sits and idles when started in my shop. 

[chargerbr549]

I put an 800 AVS on my smogger 440 in my pickup awhile back and it works great the only thing I had to do was readjust the float levels that a previous racer had set way to high.