MP .528 cam and a tighter converter

[Kern Dog]

This seems to be a great street cam from what I have read.
I've been annoyed with the lazy low speed operation of my car for awhile now. Last year when I was trying anything to eliminate the detonation in my 493, I took the advice of an online brainiac and installed a big Lunati solid lifter cam. While the car really scrams at WOT, it feels lazy at freeway speeds. I built the car for cruising and cornering. The engine as is is better suited for WOT straight line performance. I've wanted snappy throttle response from the get-go. The 528 cam has a good rep for greta manners with lots of torque.

[Challenger340]

Just say'in.... might get more response on the 528 Cam, if more was known about the history of your prior "detonation" problem ?, and the Engine / Car Combination specifics itself ?
* 493 ? What Pistons, what Heads(Flow Sheet ?), Intake, Carb, etc. ? as much info as possible ?
* Elevation ?
* Rear Gearing, Tire Diameter, Auto/Convertor ? or Stick, etc. ?

Sounds like you want to more the Torque curve lower and flatter for better low speed response ?,  but that can have pitfalls to dynamic cylinder pressure, and put you back to a "detonation problem" if a Camshaft is not careful selected.

Don't tell me.... Did you use a "dish" style Piston ?

[heyoldguy]

Here Bob

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,106842.0.html

[Challenger340]

Here Bob

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,106842.0.html

Ok Jim, Thx.... I see the original poster changed his Login ?
Been there, done this before.

IMO,
I still think there is a Cylinder Head "port" problem ?... and in my experience.... as it fits ALL the symptoms I've seen in the past, but what do I know ?
just a suggestion...
but if you are seriously considering the Mopar .528 for lower end response and a flatter Torque curve ?

Here is what I would do.... just a suggestion... no wars wanted !
1.) Get your Heads off and FLOWED... assessed by someone FAMILIER with BB Mopar Eddy's. (Jim LaRoy(heyoldguy) on here, Dwayne Porter)
Follow their reccomendations after they've assessed the Ports relative to if there is a problem ? , which again, that is just my suspicion here ?
either way.... repairs to the ports from whatever "prior" Porting was done, are FAR EASIER when going to lower lift Seat & Cam profiles.
2.) Talk to Crane... but I've had great success in the past over-coming stressed Ports(again... just my suspicion), by shutting off the problem in the "port"(peak lift demand).... by using lower Valve Lifts... but on longer durations.... something similar to, but different from a Marine application Cam. The Air/Fuel charge may still separate at the Valve, let the Piston punch up the turbulence/remix the fuel in the Combustion Chamber.
Crane F258/3468-8 comes to my mind in the past as a good cheater ? 258* @ .050, with just .520" lift Int & Exh.
Dunno the closing point ABDC.... but you can choose one of the other profiles from that series as you see fit for DCR.

just my 2 cents... I won't respond anymore.

[Kern Dog]

Thanks guys,
I changed the screen name because I never was quite happy with my original title. I decided to change to the same name I use on several other forums. It wasn't meant to hide from anything. Quite the opposite, really.
I plan to make some calls this week. I may end up with a custom grind instead of an "off the shelf" cam.
As I wrote before, the car flat out screams at WOT. Part throttle performance isn't terrible, just less responsive than I want. A drag race guy may not be bothered by it but that just isn't what I do.

[c00nhunterjoe]

I agree with getting the heads checked. Youve dumped more money into swapping parts and chasing ghosts then it would have cost to have the heads put on a bench. There are plenty of guys running more compression with the same gas and NOT having the issues you are. The only difference is the "port work" on your heads.

[Kern Dog]

The engine isn't knocking anymore. That isn't the point of this thread. I was asking for feedback on the Mopar Performance 284/528 solid cam. My intentions are to make the car more responsive from idle to 3000 or so. As I wrote, the car flat out screams at wide open throttle. It just doesn't feel as responsive in high gear at lower rpms.
Thanks though.

[c00nhunterjoe]

Well what gears and converter are in the car? A 493 is going to want more cam then the mp line has to offer and the 528 is far from an idle horsepower cam....

[Kern Dog]

The car has a 3.91 diff, a Gear Vendors overdrive and a 9.75 converter "rated" at 3000 stall. When cruising at freeway speeds in OD, the converter feels like it is slipping too much. When leaving a stop, the car screams if I really lean on it but I have to get past 1/3 throttle to get it moving quickly. I've driven cars, trucks, etc with stock converters and prefer the tighter feel. I enjoy cornering and a loose drag race converter isn't worth a dang when I'm trying to accelerate through a turn. It either slips too much or "grabs" and wants to spin the tires. A stock type converter will give a more positive connection for the driving that I like to do.
Regarding the .528 cam, I'm not sure that I agree with Joes assessment. The 528 is rated at 2400-6200 in a 383/440. The 493 should shift the camshaft operating range down by at least 400 rpms. Also, I am aware that Mopar Performance has cams that are far bigger than this one but another big cam probably wouldn't be right for me. The @ .050 numbers on the 528 are 241 IN/EX. I had a 292/509 HYD in there before and it has 248* @ .050. The 509 with my 1.6 rockers was .543 lift. Not a bad cam but the tight LSA makes for a rougher idle and less idle vacuum.
A tighter converter with the Lunati will not work due to the operating range of that cam. This Lunati is 261/271 @ .050, .556/.578 lift and has a 106 LSA. It was a suggestion by a FABO member as a means to lower my cylinder pressure. The guy that suggested it told me it had a later intake closing than the 292/509 I had in there before. Well, he was wrong about that, since the 509 closed the intake at 74 degrees and this Lunati closes it at 71.5. I only found this out AFTER the swap which actually raised my cranking compression and made the knocking worse. Again, I never set out to build a Wide Open Throttle drag race engine. I was just trying to stop the detonation. Turns out the thicker head gaskets did exactly that. The MP 528 cam has an intake closing of 72 degrees so I doubt that it would affect my cranking compression that much.

[c00nhunterjoe]

Well now im really confused... sorry, im not trying to be a jerk but your origonal post said your car was a turd at lower rpm and you wanted lots more horsepower from the 1500-3000 mark. Now you just said the car launches like a rocket?
   It seems you have already answered part of your own question. You dont like the feel of a loose converter, although 3k is far from loose. You want to be in overdrive turning 1600rpm with no slip in the converter yet you are are choosing cams that will not be happy in your desired rpm range. go ahead and run the 528. It is not a good grind for what you want to do. It is not designed to run behind a tight converter. Its your choice, its your car, and you dont ever seem to listen to any advice from the people that know what they are doing. You continue to ask why you are having problems and when multiple people tell you the same things, you ignore it and do what you already had it mind.
  My final suggestion to you,based soley on your last post, is to talk to bsb67 about your wants and needs. He has a 500" stroker with highway gears. Maybe you will listen to him when it comes to needing a custom grind cam for what you want to do with a 500" motor. And i still say you need to have your heads flowed. good luck with your endeavers.

[Kern Dog]

Well now im really confused... sorry, im not trying to be a jerk but your origonal post said your car was a turd at lower rpm and you wanted lots more horsepower from the 1500-3000 mark. Now you just said the car launches like a rocket?
   

I might not have been as clear as I needed.
What I meant is that the car is great at wide open throttle performance. NO detonation. I can spin the tires into 3rd whenever I want. If I only wanted to drag race it, I'd say that this is a great combination.
It is when I am at partial throttle that the performance is lacking. Cruise down the freeway at 65-70 in your car. Go ahead and just "tip" the gas a bit. For me, I see the engine rpms rise a bit faster than the speedometer does. This is because of the slippage of the converter. I'm in the 2500-2700 rpm range at legal freeway speeds when in overdrive and the converter just feels like it slips way too much. I've asked Professional Torque Converter companies and they feel that the cam I have now needs a loose converter to match. This is why I intend to scale down my combination.
Again, I want a combination that makes power from a fast idle to around 6000 rpms. It seems that the .528 is a possible good pick given my engine size.

[firefighter3931]

The converter is a bigger problem than the cam.    You need a better quality unit than what you currently have.....a $300 reman converter won't get it done. 

I had a 4200 stall Dynamic 9.5in in my car with the old 446 and it felt just like a stock converter under normal driving conditions. The previous TCI was sloppy at low engine speeds and the car felt sluggish at partial throttle. You get what you pay for with TQ converters. Expect to pay $600 or more for a quality piece. Personally for a build like yours the guy i would call is Lenny at Ultimate Converters.

FWIW, my old 446 had a bigger cam than you're currently running in your 493 and the throttle response was sharp from 2500rpm on up. Of course it was well tuned with a quality TQ converter, proper timing curve and double pumper carb.


Ron

[Kern Dog]

"I had a 4200 stall Dynamic 9.5in in my car with the old 446 and it felt just like a stock converter under normal driving conditions. The previous TCI was sloppy at low engine speeds and the car felt sluggish at partial throttle. You get what you pay for with TQ converters. Expect to pay $600 or more for a quality piece. Personally for a build like yours the guy i would call is Lenny at Ultimate Converters"

I did call them. He called me back when I was busy. Tomorrow I'm free so I intend to call.

Just for grins, the converter I have isn't stock based. It was custom built  with a 9 3/4 shell here in Sacramento. I'm not made of money but I did spend $500 on it. I got it before joining any internet forum and went with them based on word of mouth.

[Kern Dog]

I've wanted snappy throttle response from the get-go. The 528 cam has a good rep for great street manners with lots of torque.

I've neen in contact with a few companies regarding the changes I'm planning. Last fall I spoke with Pat at SMR. he thought my combo was mismatched because of the big cam and heavy car. I emailed him last week and he responded with the following:
Greg:  Much better set-up with the new cam selection.  With the stroke of your engine and the weight of your car and gearing, I recommend our 10 3/4" Pro Sportsman "Race tuff" converter.  This converter will provide sufficient flash from a dead start to get you into your operating range by 600 rpm, while still being tight enough to cruise with the overdrive.
For full details, check out the Pro Sportsman "Race tuff" converter section of our website.

Your  cost for this converter is $624.00 plus shipping
I spoke with Lenny at Ultimate Converter and he echo'd the same. A 10.75-11" converter will be a great match. Not sure when I'll get busy with it all but at least now I'm informed of my options.

[Kern Dog]

It looks like th 528 cam has another fan.

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,111848.0.html

His dyno sheet shows 542 HP and 605 ft/lbs of torque in a 505.
Its not exactly like my engine, but very similar.
Stock Edelbrocks VS my ported ones
505 cubes Vs my 493
9.2 CR VS my 10.0 CR
Fourteen inches of idle vacuum !?? At best I get 11 currently, about 4-6 when in gear!

[Kern Dog]

Things are moving forward. I have the 528 cam and lifters. I plan to sell these lifters that came with the cam because I also bought a set of the Howards solids with the EDM hole. I got a Howards 3 bolt timing set and 3 bottles of Comp cams oil supplement.
I ordered an 11" Converter from Lenny at Ultimate converter. It should be ready in a few weeks.

[Kern Dog]

This has been such a busy Summer, I've barely had time or energy after work to do much.
I did remove and sell the Gear Vendors overdrive. It should arrive in Chattanooga Tenn. this week. I pulled the 10" converter and installed an 11" unit I bought from Ultimate Converter Concepts. Those changes have really transformed the car. The tighter converter has made the car much more responsive at every speed. It no longer feels like I'm constantly slipping while under 3000 rpms. I still plan to swap in the 528 cam. Using my 1.6 rockers I'll be at .563 minus the lash. I'm going to pull the 3.91 gears and run a fresh set of 3.55s. The milder cam, tighter converter and moderate axle ratio should still make for a snappy street car.

[firefighter3931]

Great News....I knew Lenny would nail it on the first try 

The 528 cam and 3.55 gears are a good match with that stall 



Ron