thickness; '69/earlier 440 forged steel versus 426 HEMI

[hemi68charger]

Hello All,
Looking to see what the difference in thickness of the 69 and earlier440 steel crank dampner versus the OEM 426 HEMI. I bought a set of 69 and later hemi pulleys. MY 426 HEMI has a 440 steel rotating assembly, hence the thinner dampner. I need to fabricate a spacer. I bought the spacer w/bolts sold by Hoovers Auto, but it is too thin.

Thanks again for all the help on this latest project of mine...

[fy469rtse]

I didn't know there was a differance to dampers , you could put an after market fluid damper on it, or you could just get the correct one ,
I saw spacers and such to put in front balancer to space for lining up your pulleys, ? Is that the issue, look at 440 source web site,
I wouldn't be trying to space the balancer, it needs to register firmly on the nose of the crank, torqued to spec
Just space the pulleys
I did because I ran a milodon gear drive and this changes everything on the front, this pushed everything forward by 14 mm , and I just used spacers, they come in different thickness too, also shim thickness to get it absolutely close
Assemble it , just use washers to get looking right, measure the thickness and just order them

[hemi68charger]

I didn't know there was a differance to dampers , you could put an after market fluid damper on it, or you could just get the correct one ,
I saw spacers and such to put in front balancer to space for lining up your pulleys, ? Is that the issue, look at 440 source web site,
I wouldn't be trying to space the balancer, it needs to register firmly on the nose of the crank, torqued to spec
Just space the pulleys
I did because I ran a milodon gear drive and this changes everything on the front, this pushed everything forward by 14 mm , and I just used spacers, they come in different thickness too, also shim thickness to get it absolutely close
Assemble it , just use washers to get looking right, measure the thickness and just order them

Thanks for your reply..

1. I can't put the proper Hemi dampner on it, it has 440 rods...... Hence, won't work.

2. Who did you get your spacers of various thickness' from?

[cdr]

they have some different thickness spacers
http://store.440source.com/Crank-Pulley-Shim-055-Thickness/productinfo/127%2D1004/

[ws23rt]

I'm curious. If the engine is internally balanced why would 440 rods make a difference as to which damper to use?

Also do you know what thickness spacer you need with your setup? If so I'm willing to make one for you.

BTW  I measured .700" difference between a hemi and a 440 dampener.

[hemi68charger]

I'm curious. If the engine is internally balanced why would 440 rods make a difference as to which damper to use?

Also do you know what thickness spacer you need with your setup? If so I'm willing to make one for you.

As far as the balancing goes, I'm sorry if I gave the impression that everything was "balanced".... I'm just saying that the hemi has a OEM 440 HP rotating assembly (rods, crank and dampner)....

Who knows, maybe I'll take you up on your offer.....   

[ws23rt]

I'm curious. If the engine is internally balanced why would 440 rods make a difference as to which damper to use?

Also do you know what thickness spacer you need with your setup? If so I'm willing to make one for you.

As far as the balancing goes, I'm sorry if I gave the impression that everything was "balanced".... I'm just saying that the hemi has a OEM 440 HP rotating assembly (rods, crank and dampner)....

Who knows, maybe I'll take you up on your offer.....   

No apology needed---They did use a thicker dampener for a reason   I just like to know why things are.

[hemi68charger]

I put a straight edge to the front face of the water pump pulley and positioned it down to the crank pulley. The distance from the leading edge of the water pump pulley and the front rim of the aft pulley on the crank was about 3/4's of an inch. So, looks like the .750 spacer is what I need... The water pump pulley lines up with the alternator pulley well....... Sooooooo, now the search for a 3/4" spacer....

[BSB67]

The damper does not care what rods are in it.  If it is internally balanced, just get the right balancer. 

The pulley is centered by the balancer register.  Your spacer will need to register on the balancer and provide a register for the pulley.

[hemi68charger]

The balancer is what it is... The motor was built this way by a very respectable Hemi engine builder, the dampner that's on the motor will stay. It is all OEM parts without mod's, so there's a reason it is there.....  I'm not an engineering student, but know there's a relationship between the rods, crank and dampner on any motor. In this case, a 440 HP rotating assembly was put in a 426 HEMI block............... So, now I have to work with what I have........ Not sure where the "internally balance" part of this came out, but I never mentioned it. All I mentioned was the rotating assembly that's in the motor is out of a '69 or earlier 440 HP...

Thanks for all of your input........

[Charger-Bodie]

The most likely reason the builder used the 440 balancer is so you can use much cheaper and easier to find 440 pulleys and bracketry. You threw a wrench into that plan by wanting to run the federal ps pump. I would just run the Saginaw and be done with it. Then you can use all the stuff from the front of your 440. That is what I'm doing on my 69 r/t hemi swap. If it were a real hemi car it would be a different story.

[hemi68charger]

The most likely reason the builder used the 440 balancer is so you can use much cheaper and easier to find 440 pulleys and bracketry. You threw a wrench into that plan by wanting to run the federal ps pump. I would just run the Saginaw and be done with it. Then you can use all the stuff from the front of your 440. That is what I'm doing on my 69 r/t hemi swap. If it were a real hemi car it would be a different story.

The engine builder did do it for a reason, and it wasn't economics, it was performance. The 440 rotating assembly is lighter than a hemi, thus less rotating mass...

Yes, I know I'm the one with a gun to my own foot with my desires to utilize the Federal Pump, hence my investigation and looking for an appropriate spacer, even if I have to have one fabricated.......   

[BSB67]

The balancer is what it is... The motor was built this way by a very respectable Hemi engine builder, the dampner that's on the motor will stay. It is all OEM parts without mod's, so there's a reason it is there.....  I'm not an engineering student, but know there's a relationship between the rods, crank and dampner on any motor. In this case, a 440 HP rotating assembly was put in a 426 HEMI block............... So, now I have to work with what I have........ Not sure where the "internally balance" part of this came out, but I never mentioned it. All I mentioned was the rotating assembly that's in the motor is out of a '69 or earlier 440 HP...

Thanks for all of your input........

Right.  69 and earlier 440 are internally balanced.  Any reputable builder will internally balance the assembly, although there could be situations that they might not, but that would mostly be due to the owner's intended use and his budget.

ATI offers 20 different Mopar big block balancers, and the are all for any B and RB Chrysler including Hemi. There is no distinction on weather they are hemi's or what rods and crank are installed.

Did your builder know that there was going to be an alignment problem before he purchased the balancer?  Have you called him and asked if there is a different balancer to meet all of your conditions including pulley location and timing tab on your specific timing chain cover?

[moparsr2fast]

   Making a functional spacer wouldn't  be to bad.  The bore could only be big enough to allow the crank bolt/washer thru. That will leave about an 1/8" to machine a new register, which will be plenty wide enough to locate the crank pulley. Counterbore the back side of the spacer to fit over the dampner register. Make this a size for size press fit, or maybe even a. 001" slip fit. Drill and counterbore the pulley pattern to bolt the spacer on with socket head cap screws. And drill and tap a new pattern for the pulley. Use helicoils here. 

[ws23rt]

   Making a functional spacer wouldn't  be to bad.  The bore could only be big enough to allow the crank bolt/washer thru. That will leave about an 1/8" to machine a new register, which will be plenty wide enough to locate the crank pulley. Counterbore the back side of the spacer to fit over the dampner register. Make this a size for size press fit, or maybe even a. 001" slip fit. Drill and counterbore the pulley pattern to bolt the spacer on with socket head cap screws. And drill and tap a new pattern for the pulley. Use helicoils here. 

It would be simpler for the spacer to just have a counter bore for the register and a matching male register on the other end with holes for longer bolts.
Just like fan spacers are made.  Simple is better.

[moparsr2fast]

  You would be correct. I forgot about the KISS rule...... Keep It Simple Stupid..

[fy469rtse]

Don't space the balancer, you just need spacers to get your pulleys in line,
440 Source and others have spacers for mopar  , Mancini racing , summit etc
Mount it all up and space with washers to get it right, then you can measure for the right thickness spacer the first time ,

[hemi68charger]

...Mount it all up and space with washers to get it right, then you can measure for the right thickness spacer the first time ,

The project was to move the lower crank pulley with spacers, I wasn't going to touch the balancer.....

Your idea of mocking up the pulley with some long bolts and washers is a good one.. 

[fy469rtse]

Yes the idea is to save you some time, so to cut down on the number of you purchase also
I had the same issue because of a milodon gear drive , I had to make a spacer, 12 mm, and so I would have the lip to register on balancer and lip for pulley to centre on , I still got it wrong , not far off , ended up still buying a couple from 440 source myself