440 stalls

[69dodge383]

So I got the 440 in started, running, car moves drives etc.

It is a bitch to start this thing. I have a high torque mini starter and it takes forever to get this to turn over. I have to keep giving it a little throttle and eventually it roars to life and can move about. Once I get the car up and moving it dies either at stall or coming to a stop sometimes. I am pretty sure I have my timing good cause the car will smoke the tires easy. I did adjust the dist clockwise for some advance, thinking that it was retarded timing that was causing the hard starts and stalling. I get the same result. I have adjusted the carb to be richer and that doesnt seem to help. I am running a Holley Blue fuel pump @ 7.5 psi. Engine specs are below. I know this motor is there and right, now down to the fine tuning. I dont think I can turn the idle screw up more because it will make it idle way to high.
Any ideas?
If you want me to do a video of the car in action and post a link I can, just request it.

Doug



'72 440HP
.30 - Mopar perfomance pistons
10:5 to 1 compression
Edelbrock performer heads
Hughes solid lifter cam 277/283 - 245/250 - .560/.575
TTI headers with 2" primaries
Dynamic converter 9" street/strip
3" dual with Super 44

[myk]

How're the carb's floats?  7.5 psi sounds a bit high, IMO; too much fuel pump pressure can cause the 'carb to flood.  For example, my Edelbrock 750 doesn't want to take more than 6.5 psi, according to the manual.  My electric pump had to be limited/regulated to follow that 'spec.  Is your e-pump providing adequate pressure?  My e-pump was just replaced for being faulty with less than 500 miles on it.  Float levels too high?  You get flooding and problems as well.  Float levels too low?  That can cause the motor to starve and stall as well.  What 'carb are you running?

Also, retarding the timing will make it easier to start-at least it did on mine.  What's your initial timing set at ?  Total timing?

BTW I love your setup; I'd like my 440 to be set up like yours some day...

[69dodge383]

Sorry should have listed the carb

800CFM - Edelbrock

Previous owner had motor in cuda bracket car with 850 demon on top.

[69dodge383]

edelbrock carb is new out of box

[myk]

I'd check the float levels and try to verify fuel pump performance.  Don't worry-other people with way more experience than I do will chime in soon...

[chargd72]

I know you said you moved the dizzy to adjust timing but I would get a light or someone with experience to adjust it by ear.  Melting tires is no way to accurately set it.

[69dodge383]

I agree about getting the timing set. I am having a friend coming over today to rev the car to 3000 so I can set it at 35 degrees all in. Thats what the previous owner told me to do. He ran near 11 flat in a 68 cuda. Guy pulled this motor to put in the 528 hemi he built.

[Dino]

Do you have a different carb to play with as well?  Makes it easier to rule out certain things.

[69dodge383]

I may try the demon 850 but I am going to reduce my psi from 7.5 to 6.5 or a little under that. i checked my carb book from edelbrock and it said

" Do not use more than 6.5 psi fuel pressure. Excessive fuel
pressure may cause flooding. If your fuel pressure is too high,
install an adjustable pressure regulator such as Edelbrock #8190,
or #1727."

It may just be getting to much gas. I am going to give this a shot and will report back.

Thanks for all the responses.

Doug

[Dino]

Eddy carbs are notorious for running rich at idle as well so double whammy, you may have found the issue there because when I set my floats wrong in the TQ, it flooded like crazy and it did pretty much what yours is doing now.

[firefighter3931]

What carb are we talking about here ; 800 performer or 800 thunder series ?

The fuel curve on the performer will be too conservative with your current engine package but the Thunder can be tuned to run descent. That combination is going to want lots of base timing ; figure 20* at idle to start. 

Agreed on the fuel pressure...drop it to 6psi with an Eddy carb. Up to 8psi is fine with a Holley 


Ron

[69dodge383]

Carb is thunder series

800cfm avs thunder carb
Electric choke

I gave it a shot at 6psi. I can tell a difference in it. I will get the timing set either today or tmw when I have a helper avail to work the pedal

I will keep u posted

Thanks

[69dodge383]

Ok. So I got the fuel psi at 6. My buddy came over yesterday to give me a hand. Got timing light on motor. Set initial to apx 20. Went to rev to 3000rpm and timing was way to much advance. The bushing is the blue one and the springs are the ones that came in the msd billet. I know this needs to change, so if I got with the 18 degree bushing and one light silver on heavy silver spring that would give me 20 initial and 18 advance so 38 at 3000 per the back of the msd box. I need to be at 35 @ 3000. What's the best way to get this dead on? Should I go locked out timing?

Also through all this fun and hard cranking still, on the last try yesterday, went to start car, heard a clink noise and now the starter does one hard click
and motor turns like 1/8 of an inch. Alternator is not locked up. Battery says
12.9v. Lights do dim when the key is turned to start. Starter makes one click and then whines for a sec.

Did I fry the starter in all this?

[firefighter3931]

The starter could be drawing excessive amperage or the battery cables/grounds are bad. Check for loose connections. Are the cables heating up when you turn the engine over ? Do you have a mini starter or an original style starter ?

20* is about right for that engine combination but you might have to knock it back to 18* and install the black bushing and i would use the two lightest springs to bring the advance curve in as early as possible. 


Ron

[69dodge383]

I have a mini starter. Got it off ebay new. When it came to me it was not a name brand only label said made in china. I did not order this trying to save money. Just got it from a seller I have bought from before.

I checked and the grounds look fine, both battery and motor.

I had a 383 with a reg starter before in this same car and had no starting troubles like this.

When I first put the 440 motor together and fired it, it fired easy, no hard start. Then i changed to msd billet and edelbrock 800cfm and now a hard start since august 28th. So hard starting off and on since then.

I put my charger on my battery to make sure it was fully charged. Gave it a quick cycle and checked the voltage at 13.9 plenty to start. I go to crank and it gives one click, and I can hear it whining.

I am sure this is not the starter relay. The click is coming from the starter.

I also noticed ystdy that the car after idleing for a minute or two will die on its own. It was idling fine ystrdy at 20 degrees but would still die on its own.

I'm not out of gas.


Thanks for all your insight!

[69dodge383]

I had bought a new battery for my cutlass that is the same as the one in the charger. I put it in and it gave the same result. I checked all points of connection at battery/engine grounds and they all read 12.46 with the new battery. I am getting power to the starter relay and the starter.

I think something may have gave loose in the starter from the hard cranking

[firefighter3931]

Doug,

Try bumping it over at the starter relay with a screwdriver just to make sure the relay isn't the problem....assuming that you haven't allready tried ?

If that doesn't work then it's time to look at a new starter  I bought mine from E-bay vendor "DB Electrical" and it has been flawless for several years. It spins over the 572 like a 4cylinder....and i have the timing locked out at 35* with no start retard. 

Is your battery up front or has it been relocated to the trunk ?



Ron

[69dodge383]

Starter relay test video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dAGDPN2yQHA&feature=youtube_gdata_player

[firefighter3931]

Yep, i'd say it's the starter....sounds like the starter drive mechanism is not engaging or possibly jambed up. 

It's time for a new starter....


Ron

[69dodge383]

I just ordered another one from db electrical. I will get it swapped out and will report back.

Doug

[69dodge383]

Just to be sure this is the same as urs



http://pages.ebay.com/motors/link/?nav=item.view&id=140620247547

[firefighter3931]

Just to be sure this is the same as urs

http://pages.ebay.com/motors/link/?nav=item.view&id=140620247547

Yep, same as mine.....you'll have to remove the black terminal extension on the DB starter to clear the block. Fit's like a glove once that part is removed. 


Ron