I know this has been discussed numerous times, but stroke or?

[Hot_Rodder]

Given my (well) unknown exact facts of the bottom end of the motor, I ask the above question... I know the bottom end has been rebuilt (connecting rods have been stamped, and the cam was new with very little use) when I got the motor. But the pistons appear to be factory (look like factory pistons as far as cast and plain flat top face), I think they may have ran a hone down the cylinder and did a re-ring and new bearings type rebuild... The deck doesn't appear to have been planed, ect... If I go the stroker kit route then, I know I will get a forged crank, H Beam rods (preferably with ARP hardware), and forged pistons (either Diamond, JE, Ross, ect)... While looking at 440sources site, their compression ratios are based on the piston sitting below deck.. Input on this?
What I'm looking for is not based on horse power nor torque. Car will be full bodied, street driven for the most part. I want something that I can have some fun with whenever I want, and really move when I get on it... Here is my idea...
440 (possibly .030 over, maybe .040 depends on current bore)
Either 4.15" stroke forged crank or 4.25" stroke
H beam rods with the ARP hardware
Forged pistons somewhere between 11:1-11.5:1 compression
My Stealth heads fully worked by Modern Cylinder heads
Hydraulic roller cam
Indy dual plane intake (max wedge ports to match the heads)
Hughes 1.6 ratio roller rockers
Smith Brothers pushrods
Cometic MLS head gaskets
Milodon street/strip oil pan (already have)
Long tube headers
1" 4 hole carb spacer
Firecore ignition setup with MSD Digital 6AL box
NGK plugs
High volume aluminum water pump assembly (already have)
Not sure about carb, would 950 be enough, or should it be stepped up to a 1000? Need to stick with squarebore tho
K&N X-stream air filter assembly
Locking motor mounts
What else is there to really mention??? I know there's got to be something, but what....

So, input??? Should something be changed, or what? I know the cometic head gaskets have to have a certain finish on the deck of the block which is fine by me... Just gotta find someone to make sure the deck is good to go...

Let's see where this goes...

Oh and any guesses as far as potential #'s seems to make things more fun lol .

[green69rt]

I'll be interesting for me to follow this thread as I am going thru the same decision process right now.   I started out wanting a stroker but have backed off on that plan.  I also want a street engine that will haul the car when I give it the gas.  I've got a couple of cousins that race and their advice is just stick with a slightly warmed up 440.   Maybe add roller rockers and/or cam for reliability.   My orginal idea would have cost me somewhere between 10-16K and the warmed over engine can probably be built for 8-9 K so the extra fun was going to cost a lot and be seldom used.  The basic 440 has a lot of torque and if I want quicker street times just put in lower gears.  Maybe add a GV unit for highway crusing.  just thinkin'.

[JB400]

I believe the prior post just answered your question.  If your just wanting some fun when you snap the throttle, 440 will be sufficient.  Put in a different cam and some other basic bolt on mods will give you an adequate amount of hp and torque.  Being that all you want is a street engine, I don't see any real reason why to go with a stroker engine unless you want bragging rights.  In that case, a stroker would give you a little bit of street cred.

[Challenger340]

Being an Engine Builder with a Shop.....I get this question ALL THE TIME !
While we do strokers 600-900hp and higher as a staple of our Business probably 8 to 1 over the stock cubic inch stuff, it's more to do with our market niche as Competition Engine Shop, than the mom & pop cruiser Engine place....basically we've been told we are intimidating pricewise for the stock crowd, other than for the concourse resto guys.
No matter,
Budget, Budget, Budget......thats really what it all boils down to in the end.....and NO, you can NOT build the Stroker as cheaply as the warmed over 440, not anywhere thats any good, thats for sure, because anywhere any good that has their name on it.... will want to rework a large portion of that supposedly "good to go" outa the box chinese stroker parts, with the $100 balance job thats about as smooth at rpm as a school bus on washboard.
We end up re-grinding 60-70% of the Eagle & Source Cranks we see....and have never been able to use their balance jobs without correction, because I hate the VIBRATION in the Dyno room floor when running them.
IMO,
my personal "break point" for driving styles is 550hp/550 Trq on 92 Octane pump gas.....which is easily attainable on the warmed 440, and PLENTY to put a smile on even the most ardent Racers face when you tromp the loud pedal.
Below those numbers.....we usually don't even consider the Strokers.
If you can live with the 550/550 numbers for motivation when you need it....SAVE YOUR MONEY, stay 440, and spend it elsewhere on the drivetrain, because ultimately it's the "combination" front to rear in it's entirety on the car that goes faster, longer, with less maintenance.
Cooling System, Fuel System, Exhaust System, and on, and on.....

just my opinion, no wars wanted, you do what ya gotta do.

[justcruisin]

It all comes down to your budget and intended use. I built my 440 with the stock crank to about 500hp, the car doesn't see the track at all and is mostly used for open road driving, 3.23 cogs, 2600rpm @ 65 and a good over taking gear when you jump on it from 65 mph. I couldn't see the point of the stroker for my purpose.

[randy73]

I have to ask, what are you wanting out of this?

I just sold my 93 LT-1 vette and I ask for two reasons, one is that I no of no one that has the exact same build and I have seen many a time where stock engines have different HP an TQ, my vette had 268 at the wheels, but I know of another that had almost 300 HP at the wheels. Your best bet as far as nbrs go, is to dyno the engine at two different shops. I hope you plan to run the car at 93 octane or above, as  your compression is probably very high.
If you want a quick car, forget the engine and go w/gears and and tranny upgrades.
Looks like like a good build, but need to see what your cam is, because the wrong cam will KILL an engine.

[Cooter]

Stroke it. Then, there's never that question that inevidably pops up in your head when you pull up beside that 5.0 liter in the other lane at the stop light....."Damn, wonder if I shoulda built the stroker?"

[heyoldguy]

Being an Engine Builder with a Shop.....I get this question ALL THE TIME !
While we do strokers 600-900hp and higher as a staple of our Business probably 8 to 1 over the stock cubic inch stuff, it's more to do with our market niche as Competition Engine Shop, than the mom & pop cruiser Engine place....basically we've been told we are intimidating pricewise for the stock crowd, other than for the concourse resto guys.
No matter,
Budget, Budget, Budget......thats really what it all boils down to in the end.....and NO, you can NOT build the Stroker as cheaply as the warmed over 440, not anywhere thats any good, thats for sure, because anywhere any good that has their name on it.... will want to rework a large portion of that supposedly "good to go" outa the box chinese stroker parts, with the $100 balance job thats about as smooth at rpm as a school bus on washboard.
We end up re-grinding 60-70% of the Eagle & Source Cranks we see....and have never been able to use their balance jobs without correction, because I hate the VIBRATION in the Dyno room floor when running them.
IMO,
my personal "break point" for driving styles is 550hp/550 Trq on 92 Octane pump gas.....which is easily attainable on the warmed 440, and PLENTY to put a smile on even the most ardent Racers face when you tromp the loud pedal.
Below those numbers.....we usually don't even consider the Strokers.
If you can live with the 550/550 numbers for motivation when you need it....SAVE YOUR MONEY, stay 440, and spend it elsewhere on the drivetrain, because ultimately it's the "combination" front to rear in it's entirety on the car that goes faster, longer, with less maintenance.
Cooling System, Fuel System, Exhaust System, and on, and on.....

just my opinion, no wars wanted, you do what ya gotta do.

Wow, completely true. Been a while since I could agree so much with anyone, right down to the "intimidating pricewise for the stock crowd". Plus, people don't even comprehend what 550/550 actually feels like. Funny, I thought the old 375 HP/440s really moved when you stepped on them.

[Hot_Rodder]

Sorry for not checking in until now, my internet connection at the house is down yet again....
Anyway, I know the whole budget ordeal, nothing new to me lol . This current 440 is supposed to be like 500 hp/ 630tq @ flywheel.... I question it because of the bottom end... I asked this question because I don't know what this engine has been through since it was first built... To me I think it's a cast crank, factory rods, and factory slugs, but top end is all performance... This is why I ask this question, more of a chance this factory cast stuff to these kind of #'s, or put in forged stuff that I should be able to trust... I know it's gonna cost more $$$$, the more you want to play, the more it costs.... I also know that if you are going to replace the factory cast crank, then you might as well step up to a stroker forged crank, now days more or less costs about the same... I also really just  don't know the compression of the bottom end, I know the cylinder head cc's, and I know the compressed thickness of the head gaskets... So now let's see what the replies will be...

[1974dodgecharger]

Stroke it. Then, there's never that question that inevidably pops up in your head when you pull up beside that 5.0 liter in the other lane at the stop light....."Damn, wonder if I shoulda built the stroker?"

lmao I agree...

[Cooter]

Sorry for not checking in until now, my internet connection at the house is down yet again....
Anyway, I know the whole budget ordeal, nothing new to me lol . This current 440 is supposed to be like 500 hp/ 630tq @ flywheel.... To me I think it's a cast crank, factory rods, and factory slugs, but top end is all performance...

With What you describe here, Stroke it.

[firefighter3931]

With the top end you have currently, my choice would be the 493. The taller pistons in the 4.15 stroke combo is a better choice for longevity and piston stability in the bore, inmho 

Mancini has some nice rotating assemblies available for a reasonable price. Excellent value for the dollar 

Diamond pistons/Eagle crank/rods/Rings/bearings ; http://chucker54.stores.yahoo.net/ma493ci440di.html

This is a well packaged kit using the 2.20 rod bearing size and .990 piston pin. I would have it balanced locally by the machinist you plan on using. 


Ron

[Hot_Rodder]

Then the other question is, what the name/# of the machine shop in Alabama that does a lot of Mopar items? I used to know their name, and had their number, but that info has grown legs and walked off.

[rayderluvr]

my personal "break point" for driving styles is 550hp/550 Trq on 92 Octane pump gas.....which is easily attainable on the warmed 440, and PLENTY to put a smile on even the most ardent Racers face when you tromp the loud pedal.

I like the sound of 550hp/550 tq on pump gas. How easily is this attained? How much will it cost intake to oil pan?

[1974dodgecharger]

my personal "break point" for driving styles is 550hp/550 Trq on 92 Octane pump gas.....which is easily attainable on the warmed 440, and PLENTY to put a smile on even the most ardent Racers face when you tromp the loud pedal.

I like the sound of 550hp/550 tq on pump gas. How easily is this attained? How much will it cost intake to oil pan?

based on spec crate engines can get this.

[fizz]

Really a hard decision on what to build. I had a 70 r/t in the 70's-80's, and sold it because of other priorities keeping me from building the way I wanted. Now i'm a fifty somethin and can afford within reason what I want. My first build was a forty one ford pickup, chopped , old school hot rod about 600 hp. I love it but drive it only about 100 miles from home for not having hiway gears, cramped interior space, no air. Now I am in the decision making faze of the charger(sheetmetal work is done and headed to another shop for paint). So Iwant a fun, really fast car that I can drive comfortably cross country. I don't want to get done and realize I compromised too much fun(power) to make it a driver. Ithink a 493-500" engine is a no brainer. My kid talked me out of the auto with gv overdrive into a tremec conversion because it will be more fun. He's right. I always wanted a four speed car back in the day. Always wanted a six pack car back in the day also, so if no one can give me agood reason other than the money, I will go with the B&D six pack fuel injection. I will go thru and keep the 8 3/4 rear end for now. I will install a classis air cond. setup. Is a roller hydraulic cam the right choise for a car I plan to run rt.66. What heads? Who to buy the stroker kit from? Default to Indy cause it is the safe way to go. I want to be able to run interstate @ 15 mpg, cut a 12 something 1/4 mile, not have to adjust valves 500 miles into a 1000 mile trip, and brag about 600 hp. Hey old guy, ron and challenger 340 seem to have some good experience so I would treat your opinions as gospel

[firefighter3931]

What heads? Who to buy the stroker kit from? Default to Indy cause it is the safe way to go. I want to be able to run interstate @ 15 mpg, cut a 12 something 1/4 mile, not have to adjust valves 500 miles into a 1000 mile trip, and brag about 600 hp. Hey old guy, ron and challenger 340 seem to have some good experience so I would treat your opinions as gospel

Fizz, the 600hp goal is attainable with some proper planning ;

(1) stroker kit : Mancini 493ci I linked to above. (you might have to ask for a piston with a bigger dish to accomodate the 75cc chamber on the EZ heads)
(2) Heads : Indy EZ with the std port size to match up with your EFI manifold
(3) Cam : Hydraulic roller custom built with a wide LSA to reduce overlap with the EFI setup

* Cam profiles with lots of overlap cause problems for fuel injection systems. You need a grind that has nice manners and makes plenty of manifold vacuum.


Ron

[fizz]

Thanks Ron, I'll start there and start a new thread for my engine buildup and look for a thumbs up or down on the parts I am considering, if that is OK. Sorry I hijacked the thread.

[BY RSCO]

I have been back and forth 100 times with this myself in the last little bit. I had decided that "if the stock shortblock is ok, I will run it" - well, after the engine builder tore it down, I do have a good block, but since it was out of a 1977 truck, there is just not that many desireable parts in the shortblock. I need machine work anyway, and the price of a stroker rotating assembly is not a huge difference from a stock one - it looks like in the end I will be at roughly $1500 more dollars to stroke it and be done. When I bought the car from a "good ole boy", I was told "she's built right!!" - yeah...
At that moment I knew that it would be gone through from top to bottom (the engine, etc) note the two new pushrods...I think that was the extent of his building, and changing the oil pan. On a good note, the 492 castings will be sold soon if anyone is interested. (and i hope to be posting some build pics of the engine soon as well with details on what was used and the results.) Trying to post pics of teardown - having no luck..stay tuned..

[BY RSCO]

I have been back and forth 100 times with this myself in the last little bit. I had decided that "if the stock shortblock is ok, I will run it" - well, after the engine builder tore it down, I do have a good block, but since it was out of a 1977 truck, there is just not that many desireable parts in the shortblock. I need machine work anyway, and the price of a stroker rotating assembly is not a huge difference from a stock one - it looks like in the end I will be at roughly $1500 more dollars to stroke it and be done. When I bought the car from a "good ole boy", I was told "she's built right!!" - yeah...
At that moment I knew that it would be gone through from top to bottom (the engine, etc) note the two new pushrods...I think that was the extent of his building, and changing the oil pan. On a good note, the 492 castings will be sold soon if anyone is interested. (and i hope to be posting some build pics of the engine soon as well with details on what was used and the results.) Trying to post pics of teardown - having no luck..stay tuned..