Look we're famous

[Aero426]

Now get yourself to actual testing.   The first thing to realize is that tires on a race car DON'T track flat - because of camber - they'll run on their edges UNLESS they are on a banked track.  So the supposed tire clearance, may ONLY have been talking about a 2" by 2" clearance spot.  As a result, the fender scoops i.e. exhausters become the NATURAL spot for the clearance  i.e. the location of the scoops were then matched to tire position in final design.

This is the way the scoops were always explained.

[Aero426]

(My next few posts are copied and pasted from the old thread.)   http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,85143.150.html

In an attempt to load the right front suspension, I jacked the left rear of the #7 car up in the air.    This transfers that weight to the right front corner.     The result of this is that by looking at the lower control arm (bottom photo) being within one inch of the unibody the right front suspension is "not far" from being maxed out.  

[Aero426]

Look at the angle of the upper control arm.   I have some weight on that corner.

[held1823]

dane, are you visualizing the tire traveling straight up? keep in mind two factors that come into play. the steep track banking would place all of the load on the right side of the car, moving the suspension on that side upward (and toward the area you highlighted in the last photo). at the same time, centrifugal force would try  to "throw" the body towards the outside of the turn, which would (a) move the left fender away from the left tire, and (b) move the right tire closer to the right fender. this would occur at the outer edge of the fender, not the area highlighted above. suspension travel is regulated with the larger/stiffer components, which would limit the amount of upward travel enough to keep the tire away from the sharp inner edge.  


*** rainbow posted the same scenario as i was typing this, and doug's photos are adding a visual reference to both our descriptions. the tire would hit the outer fender area, not the side nearest the hood***

[Aero426]

The result of this is that with the suspension loaded, there are three inches between the top of the tire and the closest piece of metal (inner fender and hood).    It's not even close to factoring into tire clearance relative to the scoop.     The outer portion of the tire has one inch between itself and the inside of the fender lip.

[Aero426]

It can be debated as to whether side of the fender is an interference issue, or not.  Assuming there was enough travel, it's my belief that the tire would also hit the outside of the fender before it got to the scoop area. 

BTW, this is what Chrysler referred to as a bubbled fender.  Bubbled fenders refer to the SIDE, not the top.     They did not recommend this treatment as shown on the #6 car for aero purposes.   Look how smooth the Petty cars are on the sides of the fenders.  Same for the #88.     They wanted the airflow to stay attached on the side of the car. 

[Daytona Guy]

dane, are you visualizing the tire traveling straight up? keep in mind two factors that come into play. the steep track banking would place all of the load on the right side of the car, moving the suspension on that side upward (and toward the area you highlighted in the last photo). at the same time, centrifugal force would try  to "throw" the body towards the outside of the turn, which would (a) move the left fender away from the left tire, and (b) move the right tire closer to the right fender. this would occur at the outer edge of the fender, not the area highlighted above. suspension travel is regulated with the larger/stiffer components, which would limit the amount of upward travel enough to keep the tire away from the sharp inner edge.  


*** rainbow posted the same scenario as i was typing this, and doug's photos are adding a visual reference to both our descriptions. the tire would hit the outer fender area, not the side nearest the hood***

I know - i'm just using the doc - about the tire hitting the hood and fender. I see more of the problem actually being the upper (outer) side fender. We are in agreement on this...

Dane

[Daytona Guy]

I think it is an uphill battle for tire clearance without any documentation stating tire clearance as the reason for the "extractors". Then with documentation that states "extractors" and "Mounted above both front tires" with "3% less drag" is very hard to say these are untrue statements. Do you agree?

[odcics2]

I think it is an uphill battle for tire clearance without any documentation stating tire clearance as the reason for the "extractors". Then with documentation that states "extractors" and "Mounted above both front tires" with "3% less drag" is very hard to say these are untrue statements. Do you agree?

[C5X DAYTONA]

I think it is an uphill battle for tire clearance without any documentation stating tire clearance as the reason for the "extractors". Then with documentation that states "extractors" and "Mounted above both front tires" with "3% less drag" is very hard to say these are untrue statements. Do you agree?

I agree too,   It is an uphill battle for the tire clearance question as Chrysler tricked NASCAR into thinking it was an extractor ONLY.    The conversations between the guys in engineering likely will never be on Chrysler's original documents.   What is so awesome that these guys all have come out to the DSAC and WW National Meets.   They laid it to rest for some of us 35 years ago.    I don't doubt them.   No matter what test was done.  It was that "meeting" after Pointer's first drawing.  Engineering saw the drawing, Engineering (Wallace) verbally said work on the fender top on drivers side for some clearance.   Pointer took it further than Engineering wanted and made extractors.  They are extractors.  But the primary reason for it was clearance on the RF.    Like Wallace said.  It would look dumb with just the right one.     Wallace has always stated that.   We didn't care what Pointer did with it.  It was his expertise.......  That is how we got extractors.   

[C5X DAYTONA]

Quote from: odcics2 on January 26, 2013, 09:26:31 AM
Production Birds had no scoop hole but the race cars did.   Of course the customers complained and there was a service bulletin put out to cut them.
But to qualify that hole for Nascar in 1970 - ALL of them would have had to have holes.
So, that theory has holes in it!     


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[/quote]  If I got your point right.   The production cars were not required.  But they did it on anyways for 69.   Wallace did said after the Daytona was given the OK by GN, they would not be mandatory on the production model.  

[C5X DAYTONA]

Re: Look we're famous
« Reply #79 on: January 26, 2013, 08:05:01 PM »

It says they were getting the same numbers on the full size cars - so this tells me they were testing full size cars, does it not?

The jury is still out for me

Dane
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[/quote]That comment was referring to the full size E-Series (500) and the 3/8 E-Series scale car.  Test numbers were identical.   So no full size wind tunnel testing was done with the F-Series (Daytona.)  All wind tunnel test were done with the 3/8 car only as the notes say.  

[C5X DAYTONA]

The e, f or g-series tests were not limited to one wind tunnel model, were they? To me it would be ridiculous to do a test on a car like the "little model" for fender exhausters, that does not have moving tires at the appropriate speeds, does not have an engine, or the variables needed to perform a scientific test that the extractor would be tested for. That would be insulting. The jury is still out for me

Dane

All E and F series test were limited to one 3/8 wind tunnel model.   I think Petty has the 3/8 G-Series car.  I'll have to ask Jim Radke/Joe Machado on why WW didn't grab that one too.    That is what is so neat about this issue.  It did have a motor with a fan connected simulate pulling air through the front grill area.  Wallace had said that it really didn't make any difference as the fan was just to keep the engine from over heating during pit stops and at race speeds the grill opening was enough (barley) to keep them cool at speed.   Less grill opening = more aero.       Is it still an uphill battle for us Clearance Birthers?    

[odcics2]

Is it still an uphill battle for us Clearance Birthers?    

Maybe because original Chrysler documentation supports 3% less drag and the clearance side of the coin has zip, zilch, nada in their corner...  

     

[held1823]

like i've said before, i'm not sure which theory i support. both sides have merit, and the lack of any "official clearance documentation" is countered by decades of first hand accounts from the men who designed the car. it's not like they are recollecting this clearance theory, forty years after the fact. they have stated it from the very beginning. if anything, one of their stories has changed, with a "wink, wink", years after telling it differently.

there is a possible quirk with the handwritten document posted a few pages back. both times the exhausters are mentioned, there is a difference in the handwriting from the other lines near it. there is a slant to the writing, much like a left-handed person would have. was one of the enginners left handed? if so, which one? while the handwritten version is certainly genuine, was this report ever redone on a typewriter?

another original chrysler document supports aircraft-type fresh air intakes for the hood, along with larger wheel openings.

yet another chrysler document supports the idea of 100% hemi-powered c500's. should one have missed the second document, they would not believe a 440-powered c500 existed.

[Indygenerallee]

Thanks for those pics Aero426, my whole opinion on the scoops is it was to let out any trapped air in the engine bay because lets face it at 200 MPH that opening on the nosecone may not look big but there is a ton of air being forced through to cool the radiator, the stock cars had no inner fenders like the production cars so thats alot of air trapped under the front causing drag, I believe that the scoops were placed to evacuate any trapped air under the hood and also being made the way they were would it not also create a vaccum at high speed near the opening of the scoop helping airflow through the radiator in effect sucking more cool air in??

[Daytona Guy]

Thanks for those pics Aero426, my whole opinion on the scoops is it was to let out any trapped air in the engine bay because lets face it at 200 MPH that opening on the nosecone may not look big but there is a ton of air being forced through to cool the radiator, the stock cars had no inner fenders like the production cars so thats alot of air trapped under the front causing drag, I believe that the scoops were placed to evacuate any trapped air under the hood and also being made the way they were would it not also create a vaccum at high speed near the opening of the scoop helping airflow through the radiator in effect sucking more cool air in??

This can't be denied.

Not to make this a religeouse issue, so please don't go there, but as a minister this is what we deal with all the time with scripture (the Bible). What document is authentic, what is verbal tradition, how many writers (in this case - engineers) report the same events, historical context, and so forth. The Logos (writen word - or Log) carries a lot of weight vs the "Rema" (the spoken word). If it is nowhere found in the Logos, and only in the Rema, then the Rema is more likely to be flawed. Yet in this case, there are only a couple of logos recorded, and that too is of concern.  In the scriptures - Bibleon (Lat. for "The Book") there are 100s of Logos writen across cultures, and languages to use to get the harmonized (inspired) Book we have today.  

The next step is, can these two witnesses be harmonized, the Log, and the Rema. Notice how both sides draw their lines? Can they be harmonized? They can, and one person in this thread has. It does not make it true, but a great effort and very well may be right . The last point is the scientific look. Using God created physics and geometry that are within themselves "laws" or "facts" 2+2=4 every time. . This is where the bible is an exception (miracles) that go beyond the bounds of limited dimension of observable science (dark matter).  Unless one of these two dilemmas defies  known laws of science (that even Atheists believe in we are left to proving the "Exhausters" with the laws of science. Even then, the aero guys may have stumbled on to this because of other reasons. After all the lightbulb was an intentional accident.

The more we took into this in a fun way - the more truth may come out. So keep posting untill we test this. If the tire can't hit the top of the fender because of limited travel, and evey variable can be duplicated, then that may be definitive.  

Dane  

Sent from an iPhone - with no glasses - sorry if it not good eng

[C5X DAYTONA]

Is it still an uphill battle for us Clearance Birthers?    

Maybe because original Chrysler documentation supports 3% less drag and the clearance side of the coin has zip, zilch, nada in their corner...  

     

 I agree,   Yes there is documents on the exhausters.  That is what Pointer called them.  Were they not to test it?  That is the thing.   He was told to push up the RF fender first.  A verbal.  Hey since we can modify the new body.  Lets try that now.   As Wallace said before.  We could not modify the fender top on the 500 so we had to modify the suspension.  We could on the Daytona.  So Pointer designed exhausters.  Double affect with no aero penalties.  Pointer didn't come up with the exhauster thought till after he was told to fix the fender.   That is exactly how they tell it.  

[C5X DAYTONA]

Thanks for those pics Aero426, my whole opinion on the scoops is it was to let out any trapped air in the engine bay because lets face it at 200 MPH that opening on the nosecone may not look big but there is a ton of air being forced through to cool the radiator, the stock cars had no inner fenders like the production cars so thats alot of air trapped under the front causing drag, I believe that the scoops were placed to evacuate any trapped air under the hood and also being made the way they were would it not also create a vaccum at high speed near the opening of the scoop helping airflow through the radiator in effect sucking more cool air in??

Agree, they do let out engine heat on a GN car.  But that was not the original purpose.    There was plenty of room for the engine air too leave the bay.  No wheel wells.  Big front spoiler and the forward edge of the fenders and vallance were to be out past the tire.   Look at the 3 holes on the nose.  Look in the engine bay of any GN car.   Acres of room for air to escape.    The pressure problem was not there.   They put in a motor with a fan and it had no affect.  Wallace said that.  That too is why the exhauster 3% seem like a very high number.  But that is besides the point on the order of how the engineers said it happen.   Even if they put exhaust fans to aid in sucking out more air and put hot surface sickers don't touch on the fender vents.  

[Daytona Guy]

Letting air out was addiquit before the Exhausters, but was it efficient? The aero engineers are on record stating their biggest struggle is the air that is being "chewed up" under the car and out the sides. Anytime you can get air to flow over the car vs out the side or under the car is an advantage.

The little test cars did not have moving wheels at the scaled speeds that effect things either. Their concern was before the Daytona was a concept. 68.5 - was that not before the testing of the f-series cars?  If the fender scoops were a thought even if they were only for tire clearance purposes, then where did they get the data for them not effecting drag? They had to be tested somewhere... They where not tested in a wind tunnel on any of the E,F or G cars.

[odcics2]

RED MULE CAR!!!!!   That is where the parts were developed 1:1 scale.....   

[Aero426]

My understanding of how things worked was that the concepts tested on the 3/8 scale cars were proved out full scale. 

[odcics2]

High speed test car.  July 1969.    Stuff that looked promising in the wind tunnel, combined with things that looked promising on the red mule car were final tested and proved out on this car.