*UPDATE* dyno/440 back together - any pit falls to keep an eye out for?

[4402tuff4u]

Parts have been rolling in to begin putting the 440 back together. The shop working on the engine got the engine balanced. I'm waiting for custom push rods that will be cut to proper length, then the blueprinting will begin and assembling once I get the remaining parts. I ordered a higher rpm torque converter. I wonder if that will have any affect on the engine balance. The shop asked for the flex plate and stock converter when they were going to balance it. I was not sure at the time if I was going to go with a higher rpm converter. Bought a B&M 2200-2500 stall.

   

[4402tuff4u]

Another few showing engine block....

[RD]

they shouldnt need the torque converter, just the flex plate.  If its internally balanced, the torque converter will have no weights on it anyways.

make sure they check your camshaft for straightness.  I bought a cam from summit that was dropped somewhere in transit and it would not go into the 3 and 4 cam bearings during installation.  Save ya some time from the beginning.

make sure each cylinder is mic'd within specs as well as each piston being mic'd respectfully also.  ya dont want to have happen to you what happened to cudaken.

[4402tuff4u]

Thanks RD for the heads up. Never occurred to me about the cam being bent! wow! Summit must of really dropped it from pretty high elevation. Those shafts are pretty hefty. I bought mine from Engle cams and it's in a box too. I will definitely mentioned it to my machine shop guy to check it out. He did tell me that he was going to spend some time in honing the cylinders to make sure that each piston fit properly to spec with the proper clearance. He said that it would take him some time. That is so bad what happened to Cudaken. That would really suck big time after spending all this dough to get the 440 and rebuilt and spiced up. Neil (Chryco) has been very helpful in putting this 440 together. Too bad he does not live here in the US and closer. The machinist did say to me to bring everything flex plate, torque converter, pulleys, damper, all the accessories too. He wanted to see them.

[RD]

that is interesting that your machinist wanted to see all those parts... hmmmm is interesting *spy voice* 

Make sure they put in all your oil galley plugs.  sometimes the bottom one in the timing cover area is forgotten because if you are looking down on  the motor, the plug screws in from the bottom and you wount witness its location.  If they forget that one, you will have no oil running to your heads or rear lifters.  I know its elementary, but I have seen it done before.

Are they going to torque hone your cylinders?

[4402tuff4u]

RD, the machinist is also the mechanic who is going to put it together. This shop does allot of aircraft and marine engines. Carl the machinist is a licensed AP (aircraft/power plant) mechanic. They send him the aircraft engines for inspection and/or repairs. He's been around many years. With the engine accessories I guess he wanted all the accessories to look at them for condition. He did say he wanted the pulleys for balancing(??).

I will mention to him your good points. He appreciates people that are interested in these engines. He did a marine 426 Hemi a few many years ago. He said they use to put them in these big Chris Craft cruiser boats. He's got a 74 440 he's rebuilding and a very high performance cheb 454 he's putting together for a customer. Many 6 cyl Lycomings aircraft engines laying around and a few turbo prop. He also had a 12 cylinder block from an old car - small pistons. I didn't ask him what it came out of.

I'm not sure about the "torque hone". All I know is that the block was placed next to a big machine that he pointed out was going to hone it. The boring has already been done. I will ask all this next time I see him. As you can see I'm not to savvy with engines but I'm learning by reading and asking. The members here in this message board have awesome amount of information.

I just learned yesterday that the custom cut pushrods were lost by UPS.

Thanks RD

[firefighter3931]

440totuff:

Have the guides looked at by the machinist to make sure that they're not too tight. Also, the valvejob that INDY does with the "as delivered" heads is poor and should be corrected for best performance. Basicly, you want the heads looked over by a competent machinist to make sure everything is right.

Check to make sure that the valvesprings are matched to your cam profile. Looks like a nice engine with lots of good parts. 

Ron

[4402tuff4u]

Thanks Ron for your input. Every little bit of info. will make sure that all the bad possibilities will be minimized. I did speak with Chris at Engle after Eric asked me to provide him with a list of information he needed to know about the K58. Eric at Muscle Motor Racing did not order the heads and parts until I got back to him with all the particulars on the Engle cam. Some of the info was lift, install height, seat pressure, open pressure, etc...I did speak with Eric at MMR the night I got the heads delivered and he did say that he has heard some negative feed back about the heads being shipped out directly from Indy, basically not ready for use as you say. Eric at MMR assured me that they assembled my heads themselves. He said that they were ported and polished to stage II. I did pay significantly more than buying them directly from Indy but I knew it would be worth it. Eric said they are ready to be mounted & fired up. I will still have the machinist do a double check on the clearances thou - good point! Thanks again, Mike

[firefighter3931]

Eric at MMR assured me that they assembled my heads themselves. He said that they were ported and polished to stage II. I did pay significantly more than buying them directly from Indy but I knew it would be worth it. Eric said they are ready to be mounted & fired up. I will still have the machinist do a double check on the clearances thou - good point! Thanks again, Mike

Hey Mike, that's good news. If Muscle Motors assembled them then they should be good to go. The indy (out of the box) valvejob is poor at best so what you did was a good move. 

Sounds like the package is all set and that's good to hear....especially having the springs matched to the cam which is very important. 

One question though; any reason you went with the dual plane intake manifold ? Are you planning on using headers ? The head and cam combination are geared more towards high rpm operation. Just curious.

Ron

[4402tuff4u]

Want to keep the "stock" look on the 440 that's why I went with the Weiand dual plane manifold. Anything else will start giving me height/hood clearance problems. No,for now I'm not using headers. I had the stock exhaust manifolds sandblasted inside & out and special attention to the inside. I had the inside blasted with "black beauty" media to get them as smooth as possible. This will be followed with 2.5" TTI exhaust and "X" cross over.  My Charger came with an Edelbrock 800 cfm carb that might have to be upgraded in the future to really get the pony's going on the 440. I'm trying to be kind of a purist with my Charger, but I also want the performance out of it. The cam is not that wild because (ground to 112* cl) I still need the vacuum for the power brakes and lights. With these upgrades on the 440 I've lost some weight, so that should help too. Once it's all put together and back on the road, I'll start looking into a suregrip set up. My Charger did not come with suregrip option - it's a one legged dawg.

[firefighter3931]

Thanks for the explanation Mike. It makes sense now that the rest of the combo is outlined. The 112* lsa is a good match with factory manifolds and a dual plane intake.  You should have plenty of vacuum for your brake booster as well. 

This is gonna make a lot of torque....you'll be needing a suregrip and big rubber to hook it up; even then it's gonna be a challenge. 

Ron

[Duey]

Mike, nice engine!!!  Looks like it will be a nice piece of kit!  Are you getting the engine tuned on the dyno before you drop it in?  I'd love to know how the Indy heads work (although my next step would be a solid Engle KV-3 cam, vice the K-58...I already have the Holley single-plane SD)

Cheers
Duey

[4402tuff4u]

Mike, nice engine!!!  Looks like it will be a nice piece of kit!  Are you getting the engine tuned on the dyno before you drop it in?  I'd love to know how the Indy heads work (although my next step would be a solid Engle KV-3 cam, vice the K-58...I already have the Holley single-plane SD)

Cheers
Duey

Duey, I got the information of two places that Dyno engines here in Long Island, NY. One of them is a chassis hook up Corvette place. I have to see where I'm at with funds when the engine is completed. But rest assure that it is number one on my wish list at this point. After all these engine upgrades - I sure want to have it running at peak performance/tuning and also want to know what this combo will actually put out in hp and torque. I'm leaning towards the engine Dyno since I don't have suregrip at this point & Charger is still at the body shop for a few more months. It will be simpler just to drop off the engine at this point. The con on that is that I wont know what hp is actually being delivered to the rear tires. I'll keep you posted when the engine gets done. Thanks guys for the good points and the thumbs up.

Oh by the way, can the engine be Dyno'ed right after a fresh rebuild, from the mechanics shop to the dyno shop? I know the engine is put through a vigorous work out at the Dyno. Was not sure if that is the best thing for a fresh rebuild. Anyone???

[firefighter3931]

Oh by the way, can the engine be Dyno'ed right after a fresh rebuild, from the mechanics shop to the dyno shop? I know the engine is put through a vigorous work out at the Dyno. Was not sure if that is the best thing for a fresh rebuild. Anyone???

Absolutely. In fact the best time to dyno an engine is after the initial fire and cam break-in. The dyno will monitor vital functions and help you get the engine dialed in (ignition/fuel curves) for optimum power.  After the cam is broken in, you're ready to get to work. Depending on how many passes the engine makes : it should be broken in when it leaves the shop....and ready to drop in and run in the car. Mine made 85 Dyno runs before it left the shop....so it's safe to say that it's well broken in. Your's won't be seeing that kind of thrashing but it'll still be loosened up by the time it leaves. Looking forward to the results. 

Ron

[4402tuff4u]

Thanks Ron. I would of thought the opposite. You always heard of taking it easy on a new engine, but I guess that's an old myth. It sounds like it's almost a must. You basically would be doing a dis-service to yourself going through all this effort/expense to get a nice build and stopping short of next stage to get it running the way is suppose - meant too be.  I'm going to start researching this a little more seriously and calling/stopping by these dyno places and see what is involved and cost. Thanks again, Mike.

[4402tuff4u]

I just got off the phone with Lee at a company called LAB here in Lindenhurst, NY that has a British brand dyno called "Flued" or "Frued" something along those lines and he said to stop by to take a look at an engine being dyno'ed and he would go over the whole procedure. He said I might have to wait a bit because he has several engines scheduled already- I told him I was not ready yet. He said he would run my carburetor or his dyno carburetor. He would not run on stock exhaust manifolds. He said dyno headers would be used. I'm thinking of stopping by later today to see this dyno. He's there until 6:00 PM, cool.

[4402tuff4u]

*UPDATE* Yesterday met with Lee the owner of LAB where I want to dyno my 440. Discussed the whole procedure with him. The only thing negative about the whole thing is the price of $ 650.00 for the dyno pulls. Is that in the ball park or is that kind of high? His shop is amazing and the engines he had there would make my 440 look like a lawn mower engine. He gave me the following link that shows his dyno at LAB. That is the dyno I saw last night - awesome piece of machine! The photo below shows some engines he had in his waiting room!!

http://www.longislandperformance.com/dyno.htm

[Duey]

At first I was going to say that that sounds like a lot, but then looking at the set-up and considering that was what...a third of the cost of the Indy heads was, I figure it could very well be worth it...I'm assuming that would be for your engined tuned to the max (carbs, timing, etc...)...the whole deal.

Man, that 540 sounds NIIIIICE!

Cheers,
Duey

[4402tuff4u]

In a way, Lee @ LAB was asking me why did I want to dyno the 440. He said with my set up, the 440 would be pumping out in the high 400's, possibly 500 hp with minor tuning adjustments and different carb. He said he would gladly do it but since I'm not professionally competing with the car it might be an over kill, he said you might just want to have it hooked up to a chassi dyno to see what will I truly will be getting out of the rear tires on the Charger with stock exhaust manifolds. I have too get the engine finished first, pay that bill and also pay for the restoration on the Charger, so it might have to wait a bit longer, we'll see. 

[firefighter3931]

*UPDATE* Yesterday met with Lee the owner of LAB where I want to dyno my 440. Discussed the whole procedure with him. The only thing negative about the whole thing is the price of $ 650.00 for the dyno pulls. Is that in the ball park or is that kind of high? His shop is amazing and the engines he had there would make my 440 look like a lawn mower engine. He gave me the following link that shows his dyno at LAB. That is the dyno I saw last night - awesome piece of machine! The photo below shows some engines he had in his waiting room!!

http://www.longislandperformance.com/dyno.htm

That price is in the ballpark. The advantage of dynotuning the engine is obvious...everything is optimized for peak performance. It's also nice to break in the cam in a controlled environment....no need to worry about overheating or running lean which can grenade a fresh engine in short order. If there are any problems you'll know right away because the dyno will provide you with instant feedback on fuel consuption, engine temps and air fuel ratios. You've spent a lot of coin putting this engine together....make sure it runs properly before dropping it in the car. If there are any problems then they can be addressed by the engine builder before you drop it in. There's also a lot of comfort in knowing that everything is working fine and good to go.

Ron