Brakes

[MORFF]

Another question for the vets I do not want to go above a 15 inch rim on my 69 charger i was going to keep the drum in back and disk in front. I love the new vector se wheels that are in 15 in rims now. "General lee rims" But I am in a tight spot I want to be able to stop too. I saw this artical on line do you guys know if it will work with a B-body. Basicly I want the stoping power of a wheel that is 17 inch but only going the size of a 15 inch wheel.

http://www.carcraft.com/howto/baer_brakes/index.html

Big Brakes for Small Wheels

When the great muscle cars were new, they were meant to do one thing: go. Not much attention was ever paid to how well they stopped, just as long as they eventually managed to come to a rest. Baer Brakes has the solution to soggy stoppers while keeping
From the February, 2009 issue of Car Craft
By Terry McGean
Photography by Terry McGean
Stopping power was not a priority--or even much of a concern--back when classic cars were designed. Even after disc brakes became available, they remained as optional equipment on some of the fastest production cars of the time. In contrast, it's interesting to note that today, despite the fact that nearly all factory performance cars come with very competent braking systems, upgrading beyond the factory components has become very popular.

Baer Inc. is one of the better known sources for improved brake hardware, having built a reputation by first adapting modern road-course quality brakes to vintage muscle-era iron, and then steadily expanding its offerings to include improved systems for a broad array of today's showroom vehicles, including SUVs and compacts.

Although the merits of shorter stopping distances and more controlled braking are fairly apparent, when it comes to merging the hardware required to achieve world-class braking with vintage vehicles, there is often a conflict. Most modern high-performance brake systems use rotors that are larger in diameter than anything installed at the factory prior to the mid-'80s. What this means is that larger-diameter wheels--sometimes at least 17-inch--are usually required to clear the brake components. On late-model vehicles that rolled off the assembly line with big rollers, this isn't an issue, but for older cars that originally ran tiny 14-inch wheels, it quickly becomes one. While it has also become very popular to outfit older cars with modern large-diameter wheel/tire combos, not everyone wants to go that route.

So, for those enthusiasts of vintage iron who also appreciate the benefits of modern braking, Baer has developed a new addition to its Serious Street line of brake systems. The package combines high-performance PBR aluminum dual-piston calipers (factory equipment on many late-model Corvettes, Mustang Cobras, and others) with 11-inch EradiSpeed rotors. It fits inside any factory 15-inch wheel originally used with disc brakes and can even tuck inside some 14-inch disc-brake rims. Currently, this system is available for certain GM cars, including '67-'69 F-bodies (Camaro/Firebird), '68-'74 X-bodies (Nova, Ventura, Omega, Apollo), and '64-'72 A-bodies (Chevelle, LeMans, Cutlass, Skylark, and so on). In all cases, the same system can be used whether the car originally came with drum or disc brakes. Since the components are based on production pieces, wear parts like brake pads, wheel bearings, and dust seals are available at any auto parts distributor.

We thought the system sounded like the perfect way to finally rid our '67 Camaro daily driver of its original four-wheel drum brakes. The car runs stock-type 15x7 rally wheels, which we'd like to retain, at least part of the time. Steel wheels and tall tires go well with urban commuting, and they're cheap to replace.

The Baer system is relatively easy to install, requiring no cutting or welding, and includes just about everything you'll need to make the swap. We even had them test the car before and after to see if it was all worth it. As it turned out, the new front discs improved the Camaro's 60-mph stopping distances by 24 percent, reducing the average from 234 feet with four-wheel drums to 177 feet. From 100 mph, the Camaro saw a 56 percent improvement, stopping in 526 feet rather than 1,207. Take a look at the installation procedure.

[elacruze]

Use the search function from the home page and you'll probably find as many threads about brakes as any other mechanical subject.

I took very careful measure of all things before I converted to disc brakes-performance, price, flash factor and serviceability.

In the end, I just swapped in a stock set of 12" discs from a '79 Cordoba. I bought upgraded rotors from Frozenrotors.com and I'll of course use a high-performance (sorta) pad. My goal is long-distance touring so I'm not concerned with ultimate stopping distance using 17" racing tires, I'll just have 15" street tires all around. I figure, if the brakes are strong enough to lock the tires one time, they're good enough for what I'm doing. The 12" discs were used on the big heavy cars, and if they were good enough for the CHP they're good enough for a street car. I'll have steel wheels, so the flash factor gets no play on my car. If I ever need any parts out on the road, they're as close as PepBoys or NAPA, or at worst the Chrysler dealer.
Oh yeah, I have about $500 in the whole package including the $300 rotors.
YMMV.

[HPP]

What do you want to spend?

The factory 12" (11.75 actually) sytem is dead nuts reliable with great breaking leverage and can be put together for around $500 if your good at scrounging/shopping. The other extreme on this is a Wilwood lightweight hub with slotted heavy duty 12.19 rotor and 4 or 6 piston calipers for a couple of grand. Both will fit inside 15" wheels.

The Baer system uses an 11" rotor which is smaller than the OEM big brake set up so while it may drop some weight, your actually giving up some force.

BTW, the power in braking comes more from leverage against a larger rotor than by clamping force of the calipers. The mulit piston calipers do help with clamping some, but they primarily provide more uniform contact and better feedback.

[Long Island RT]

The other extreme on this is a Wilwood lightweight hub with slotted heavy duty 12.19 rotor and 4 or 6 piston calipers for a couple of grand. Both will fit inside 15" wheels.

I can confirm that - I have the Willwood 12.19 rotors and with a 1/4" spacer I was able to mount a 15" steel rim. Even my old Keystone aluminum 15" rims fit with no issues.

[MORFF]

Tks for the info I am glad i will be able to use 15 inch rims. I just think bigger rims look weird on old cars. Even on new cars I allways like the look of smaller rims on muscle cars. Now I know its possible to have stopping power with 15 in rims. My great uncle is helping me too he has a salvage yard so with him and you vets on this site hopefully I can come up with the best stopping power for 15 inch rims for the best price,

[elacruze]

I want to point out one thing (not the only thing) that articles like that leave out, because they have a financial interest in showing the product they're reviewing as 'improvement'.

The Baer brakes use a high-performance brake pad. If you retrofit the stock Camaro brakes with the same pad compound, the difference in performance will be insignificant. It's silly to suggest that a company the size of Baer (or Wilwood, or Brembo) can produce brakes which do things GM or Ford can't figure out. The OEM brake setups are a compromise of performance, mileage, feel, and warranty concerns.

Bottom line for brakes is Rotor Swept Area and Coefficient of Friction. You're limited to rotor size by the wheel, and coefficient of friction is dictated by rotor and brake pad composition.

If you could get more brakes in a 15" wheel than Chrysler did with the 11-3/4 rotors, they would have.
If you custom fit a modern 4 piston caliper you can get an extra 1/2 inch or so, but the difference is small in view of the price.