Anybody running a .509" cam in a 440 on the street?

[8WHEELER]

Thanks Ron
That was the input I was getting from the users of the cam, I have had all the specs for some time
but like you I have never run it, I have relied on input from the couple users of the cam mostly
regarding the vacuum. As you might no I need to use handcontrols to drive for the last 20yrs now
and need good vacuum, or I need a brake pump like on old red. But I only need the one car that
gets 8 mpg  .

So as long as I get at least 14-15lbs of vacuum at idle, standard power brakes work great evan using
the hand controls  .

Dan

[Ghoste]

You know Ron, you are slowly but surely convincing me of ditching my 484 cam for something else this winter.

[cudaken]

  SeattleChargerDog, carb running to rich will foul the plugs not the cam. As much as I dislike the 509 im my Runner fouling plugs have not been a problem. If you went with 1.6 Rockers and if I did the math right you would have 458 lift, 277 advertised duration and 36.2 valve over lap. In other words up to about the specks of a stock HP cam

If you going to run the HP manafolids, cast iron intake and the thermaquad the 277 cam seems like it would work well.

I would try it or what Ron listed for you. I have only bought 1 cam in the last 15 years. When I was running the old MP cam's I loved them. But better cam's have been made in the mean time.

                              Cuda Ken

[firefighter3931]

So as long as I get at least 14-15lbs of vacuum at idle, standard power brakes work great evan using
the hand controls   .

Dan

That shouldn't be a problem Dan. The seat timing is real short with this grind so it will purr at idle. My old Crower hdp282 is similar to this grind only bigger, everywhere. It's a 282/292 advertised, 226/236@.050, 112 lsa, .482/.504 lift. That cam made 15-16hg idle vacuum so the MP 272* should be even better.  

Ron

[kamkuda]

The advantage of the 509 cam is when old iron heads are employed and you do not wish to spend the $ on machine work to the heads for better springs to take advantage of more lift.  The 509 has Moderate lift with a fair amount of duration and it had its place. 

I would not use it on an eddy headed engine but I will be using it on my 915 iron headed 440 with 4:10 gears and a decent converter.

The 509 grind is pretty old tech and there are better grinds out there.  I happen to have the crower grind that Firefighter is suggesting, atleast for a while.

[SeattleCharger]

Can I ask your guy's opinion about this?   Is this streetable?   Is there any way to get the compression down to run pump gas?     Could I use the cam and heads on my rebuild?   Or the whole block for that matter.  My block is a 74 or 75 maybe, don't know.  Or other parts I will need to buy anyways?   I'm waiting for a reply on the size of cam.   He emailed me that all of the motor is good and that he only took it apart for inspection.  
Thanks,
Nate

    Here is what the ad says:

"Serious 1969 Mopar 440 motor problay the best year out there for 440's to build a race motor because of the extra ribbing in the block, , 12.5 :1 TRW Pistons 30 over , motor is apart for easy inspection , includes crank, pistons, rods, push rods, solid cam & lifters, 906 heads, high volume oil pump, double roller timing chain and gear, timing cover, harmonic balancer , cast iron water pump housing, valley pan, electronic distributor, box misc bolts & brackets , No Ridge IN Cylinders,,, $ 800 .   I also have a highly sought after alum. Holley Street Dominator intake 440 motor will only sell if motor sells add into the package for $ 200 more. Same intake a Mopar buddy runs in his 440 Dart and his times are 11:50's in the 1/4 Mile."

[SeattleCharger]

Aw, I'd prob. be better off using that money on a nice cam and carb and intake and just rebuilding my engine, I don't know.  What I was figuring with this used engine above, is that if I add up the internal parts of my rebuild, it might ad up to 800 bucks anyways.  

[cudaken]

 SeattleChargerDog, what I be asking is why the motor was pulled a part more than anything. Yea, I know he said for easy inspection, but if there was no issues what do you need to inspect?

Where did you find it, local or E-bay?

If the crank is good, worth $200.00 to $300.00 on E-bay ready to go. Block, could be punched 60 over and I would say worth $300.00 to $400.00. 906's heads stock, say $150.00 and that is a bout , max now. For $800.00 and parts are good not a bad deal.

I have two toughts on the pistons. First will not work well on the street unless you run a loct of octane booster. Second, ones the block is checked, more than likely will need a over bore and pistons will be ash trays that will fall over.

Find out the bulid date of the 440 block, Hemi Geno is looking for a date and as offred a finders fee for the date he wants.

Do you have a 440? If not, that a bad deal but not great either.

                                       Cuda Ken

[SeattleCharger]

Thanks Ken.   I have a 440 that has been taken apart and cleaned by a machine shop.   It needs a bore job, not much though.  I have been trying to figure out which cam to buy, want a hot one, going to put on a big carb and intake, have stock hp exh. manifolds, 2500 stall.   I would be buying extras from him I don't need, unless '69 block is that much better than mine, a '74 prob.   I want that holley intake, but he won't sell it until he sees if it sells with the motor.   He is local.   I just realized in the photos of my engine here that I had a stock cam already, forgot about that, da, now I bought that other one, two stock ones to hang up for decoration,  

Thanks again.   Ashtrays huh?  
Nate

[cudaken]

I have been trying to figure out which cam to buy, want a hot one, going to put on a big carb and intake, have stock hp exh. manifolds, 2500 stall.     
Nate

Nate, you need a bible and not more parts. First Nasty cam, big carb and stock Manfolds do not go hand and hand.

You need to start your own posting about what you want to do instead of taging on to one that is going.

Here are the details you must post for anyone to help you and your quest.

1 Budget, we spend other peoples money easy.

2 Rear gears and if sure grip or not. Or gears you think you needed. I will be happy to do the math for RPM's at driffrent speeds.

3 Have you ever ran at the track and if so what was your best ET.

4 If you have not ran at the track, well or have what do you think the et you need? 13.0 is fast on the street and things happen fast. But will need deep gears.

5 Driver, weekend car or race only. Guessing driver.

6 Weight of the Charger, with it being a stock 3 gen I am going to guess 3800 pounds.

There is so much more than big cam and big crab. You could slow you self down if done wrong. I know my Runner would be quicker with a smaller cam, but I as well feel in love with the nasty lope. 383 replaced the 426 Maxie that had a 628 solid lift cam. But all the oaarts where matched to each other and 426 maxies heads make the new E-heads look like starter head's.

Think about what I said, then ask. If I remeber right you are on a tight budget. My rings cost $140.00 in the ill fated 440.

                                          Ken

[694spdRT]

Can I ask your guy's opinion about this?   Is this streetable?   Is there any way to get the compression down to run pump gas?     Could I use the cam and heads on my rebuild?   Or the whole block for that matter.   My block is a 74 or 75 maybe, don't know.   Or other parts I will need to buy anyways?   I'm waiting for a reply on the size of cam.   He emailed me that all of the motor is good and that he only took it apart for inspection.  
Thanks,
Nate

    Here is what the ad says:

"Serious 1969 Mopar 440 motor problay the best year out there for 440's to build a race motor because of the extra ribbing in the block, , 12.5 :1 TRW Pistons 30 over , motor is apart for easy inspection , includes crank, pistons, rods, push rods, solid cam & lifters, 906 heads, high volume oil pump, double roller timing chain and gear, timing cover, harmonic balancer , cast iron water pump housing, valley pan, electronic distributor, box misc bolts & brackets , No Ridge IN Cylinders,,, $ 800 .   I also have a highly sought after alum. Holley Street Dominator intake 440 motor will only sell if motor sells add into the package for $ 200 more. Same intake a Mopar buddy runs in his 440 Dart and his times are 11:50's in the 1/4 Mile."

I have a 440 that was built very similar to this with the 2295 TRW's. The engine has been balanced, align bored and decked so I wanted to keep the setup. In order to get the compression down I am using the thicker Fel Pro big bore head gaskets that are 0.051" in thickness. My 440 has the pistons 0.015" down in the hole and my ported 346 heads measure 90cc's. This will give my a final compression around 10.25 to 1. Because of this compression I will be using a 509 cam I already have because I need the overlap to help bleed off lower rpm cylinder pressure. Before going this route I went over all of this with the guys from Hughes engines and it should run on pump gas.

I did have 509 cam in a lower compression 440 (9.0 to 1) even thought the guy claimed it was a 10.5 to 1 engine when I bought it.   I always felt it was doggy in the lower rpm's and after I tore it down and a found the low compression slugs it made sense.

In your case you might be better off building your stuff. If you do decide to buy that engine you might be better off replacing those 2295 pistons and use a newer Engle cam though.

[firefighter3931]

The other option when using the 2295 pistons is to have the domes milled off and make youself a flattop piston.  

They usually produce closer to 11.5:1 static compression with a stock open chamber head....the 12.5 number is high. For a street motor it's preferable to dial in the static compression where it needs to be and not rely on the cam to bleed off cylinder pressure.  

Ron

[694spdRT]

The other option when using the 2295 pistons is to have the domes milled off and make youself a flattop piston.  

They usually produce closer to 11.5:1 static compression with a stock open chamber head....the 12.5 number is high. For a street motor it's preferable to dial in the static compression where it needs to be and not rely on the cam to bleed off cylinder pressure.  

Ron

I agree...it is not the best solution if you are starting from scratch.

[Bandit72]

ok, not planning on hi-jacking a thread or anything, but i currently have an engine that i built up myself and was very proud of until i read this post. The engine is a 64, 413 block, stock bore/stroke. flat top pistons, 516 closed chamber heads. I'm not sure of the compression ratio but i assure you it has plenty. (has to have at least premium unleaded or it pings to beat hell and doens't like to start) anyway, i put in a .509 lift cam, new lifter, and valve springs. Edelbrock dual plane intake and 750 edelbrock carb. and Hooker Competition headers, the tranny has a 2000 stall converter and the rearend i have for it is a 3.91 posi...how is this gonna perform, do i need a higher stall?, single plane intake? eventualy (afew years down the road) i would like to get a keilser 5-speed for it but like i said it'll be awhile. i'll try to find my exact cam specs tommorow, they're in the glovebox of my truck at the time.

oh yeah, this isn't gonna be an everyday car, mostly car shows, cruise nights, and an occasionaly friday night drag....

thanks Bandit

[firefighter3931]

ok, not planning on hi-jacking a thread or anything, but i currently have an engine that i built up myself and was very proud of until i read this post. The engine is a 64, 413 block, stock bore/stroke. flat top pistons, 516 closed chamber heads. I'm not sure of the compression ratio but i assure you it has plenty. (has to have at least premium unleaded or it pings to beat hell and doens't like to start) anyway, i put in a .509 lift cam, new lifter, and valve springs. Edelbrock dual plane intake and 750 edelbrock carb. and Hooker Competition headers, the tranny has a 2000 stall converter and the rearend i have for it is a 3.91 posi...how is this gonna perform, do i need a higher stall?, single plane intake? eventualy (afew years down the road) i would like to get a keilser 5-speed for it but like i said it'll be awhile. i'll try to find my exact cam specs tommorow, they're in the glovebox of my truck at the time.

oh yeah, this isn't gonna be an everyday car, mostly car shows, cruise nights, and an occasionaly friday night drag....

thanks Bandit

It will need more converter for sure.   The holley Street Dominator or Performer Rpm dual Plane would be my choice for an intake manifold. I hope you don't have power brakes because they won't work with low vacuum.  

Ron

[cudaken]

 Did you have the bigger valves in stalled in the 516 heads? To me that will hurt what the 509 cam is desigen to do, breath at higher RPM's.

I would say around a 3000 RPM stall would be way better than the 2000.

It will run OK, but will not be great at the lower RPM's, but the 3.91's will help keep the R's up.

                            Cuda Ken

[Bandit72]

i'll check into the higher stall converter sometime before i put the engine in, and i am also planning on getting some edelbrock aluminum heads, don't know too much about them, but i see them on ebay quite often, will these solve the "not breathing" problem?

[Bandit72]

ok, i found the card that came with my cam here it goes...

Comp Cams
                      intake   exhaust
gross valve lift    .507        .510
duration @
.006 tappet lift   284         296

[firefighter3931]

That's not a bad cam ! The xe284h is a lot more streetable than the 509. It is 10* smaller @.050 lift and is on a wider lsa (110* vs 108* for the MP 509). What that means is that it will idle better and make more power down low. It should come on pretty hard at 2500-2700 rpm instead of 3500+ which is what it would do with the 509. It would help if you could degree the cam in and advance it to move the powerband down lower.

Ron

[Bandit72]

That's not a bad cam ! The xe284h is a lot more streetable than the 509. It is 10* smaller @.050 lift and is on a wider lsa (110* vs 108* for the MP 509). What that means is that it will idle better and make more power down low. It should come on pretty hard at 2500-2700 rpm instead of 3500+ which is what it would do with the 509. It would help if you could degree the cam in and advance it to move the powerband down lower.

Ron

thanks ron, i really needed to hear that, i was thinking that i had just spent 180 on a cam that i didn't need...if i had the means and knowledge to degree a cam, i would....will this cam still have a good "lope" too it? just wondering..i love that big block mopar lope...

[firefighter3931]

Bandit, it will have a nice agressive tone....don't worry, no one will mistake it for stock ! 

If the funds permit, you should consider a torque converter upgrade. PTC has a very nice 11in street converter that would be ideal with that grind and it's reasonably priced as well. Turbo action also makes a good 11in conveter that would fit the bill. I'm glad to hear you're not running the 509....been there done that....won't do it again....ever !

Ron

[cudaken]

 

Did I say that Ron Just kidding Ron. I pick on people I like, I all so take jabs well.

                                 Ken

[Ghoste]

Hey Bandit, degreeing isn't as difficult as you may think.  You probably already know someone with a wheel and some experience under their belt who could help you.  You just have to ferret them out.

[Duey]

Out of interest, how much is the worst that any of you guys has ever seen a cam out by when you've degreed it? 

Seeing as 2-4 degrees advanced or retarded can make a big difference on an engine, a cam that's several degrees would really behave like a dog and make the whole combo much worse than if the cam was degreed, right?

Cheers,
Duey