another 505 build...

[Hot_Rodder]

I couldn't hunt down my old topic of the 505 I'm wanting to build so... I'll post this in reference to bottom end question. After hearing all the stuff about 440 Source and such, hate to hear all the problems that are being associated with them, I will ask this question. I saw the post about the 440 - 493 stroker kits, and went to the Mancini website, but I don't recall seeing any 505 kits... Also, I do realize the possible fact that a lot of the cranks come from overseas, but I don't think they all do.... Anyways, what's the best kit to go with now? Or is something like this going to be better to piece together now days? I see the Speed-O-Motive has a 505 kit out too, but have not seen anything posted about their kit...
http://www.speedomotive.com/ps-563-14-mopar-440-to-512cid-all-forged-stroker-kit.aspx assuming that you can get .030 over pistons with this kit, it should equate to 505 instead of the listed 512 like 440 Source does... I've already got the heads for this motor, so that's one of the most $$$$ parts taken care of, they are the Stealths, but have been completely reworked and modified by Modern... So, any comments about the 505 bottom ends? As for water pumps, source isn't the way to go, I am wondering about the others that out on the market, do like the Milodon hv pump though....

[Hot_Rodder]

....bump....
Ummmmm.... Anyone?

[firefighter3931]

I like the kit Mancini has for sale....nice stuff ! Eagle crank + rods and Diamond pistons. Comes with Clevite bearings and Moly rings...can't beat the quality for the price. 

http://chucker54.stores.yahoo.net/ma493ci440di.html

The Milodon waterpump is top shelf....well worth the money 



Ron

[gordo1968charger]

sorry to hijack the thread but are you suggested we all stay away from 440 source stuff?

[Hot_Rodder]

Ron, after keeping up with the thread about your overheating issues, I'm leaning toward a Mopar aluminum housing and Milodon HV aluminum pump... After talking with the guy who I'm highly thinking about getting to build my motor, he said to run the 440 Source kit, and to get the compression that I'm looking toward, they would have to really mill the deck of the block to try and get a 0 deck, 440 source seems to set their pistons down in the hole a little bit..... So I'm wondering if some of these other kits out there set their pistons either at 0 deck, or a lot closer to 0 deck... Though I can't remember what the Static compression ratio that we had decided to shoot for is, I do remember that the piston that I had thought about would have been the 440 Source -17 (Dish) piston. And as I was saying about their listing of piston/deck height; Distance Below Deck: -.015" so I'm hoping that I can find something that want require much machining to bring that piston to 0 deck. Anyway, I had thought about doing an Eagle crank, H beam rods (possibly Eagle), ARP Rod Bolts, Clevite bearings, thinking about the Total Deal Max seal rings, and probably Diamond forged pistons (of course Ross and others I think would be fine too)....
But as their website says: Engine Size: 440+.030" = 493 C.I.D. I'm doing the 505 Stroker.... I'm hoping to be able to build that 505 otherwise there will have to be some things changed....

Gordo, I want stay away from the 440 Source stuff, but I'm looking into other possibilities since they seem to be having so many problems right now. There are some things that I have gotten from them that I doubt I'll have any issues with, one their Dynatech locking motor mounts, flex plate, the Stealth heads modified by Modern Cylinder Head, and some ARP hardware. On the other hand, I've not bought anything else from them, though I have obviously thought buying othe things from them in the past, but I like to learn from other folks mistakes, and hopefully keep from making the same on my end of things. Also as a side note, since this motor will be punching a little bit of power, I'm planning on running the BCR aluminum main caps. Since this motor will be on the street, though only driven as a weekend type thing and some trips to local shows (longer trips would require trailer, wouldn't be able to afford the gas alone for that motor for that kind of trip). But anyways...

[firefighter3931]

sorry to hijack the thread but are you suggested we all stay away from 440 source stuff?

If your machinist is picky....He will be happier with the Eagle stuff.   The finish quality is better on some Chinese stuff....the guy I use automatically sends any 440 source crank for a 10/10 grind and often the rods have to be worked over. He has good luck with Eagle. I'm going to run Eagle rods & crank in the 572 with Diamond forged pistons.  


Ron

[firefighter3931]

Ron, after keeping up with the thread about your overheating issues, I'm leaning toward a Mopar aluminum housing and Milodon HV aluminum pump...

That seems like a safe choice....i wouldn't hesitate to use either piece 

But as their website says: Engine Size: 440+.030" = 493 C.I.D. I'm doing the 505 Stroker.... I'm hoping to be able to build that 505 otherwise there will have to be some things changed....

What would need to be changed ?  There's no power difference between a 493 vs a 505 with a standard port window cylinder head. Both engines will effectively use up all the flow those will be able to supply and then some. Power will peak at 6k max. The head becomes the limiting factor....not the size of the rotating assembly. 

As far as decking the block ; having to remove .017 to square up the deck and bring the pistons to "zero" is no big deal....mine had .020 removed to bring everything into spec. It's basicly a non-issue, inmo. 

Ron

[Musicman]

As far as decking the block ; having to remove .017 to square up the deck and bring the pistons to "zero" is no big deal....mine had .020 removed to bring everything into spec. It's basicly a non-issue, inmo. 

Ron

I agree Ron... show me a stock block that doesn't have to be trimed 

[firefighter3931]

As far as decking the block ; having to remove .017 to square up the deck and bring the pistons to "zero" is no big deal....mine had .020 removed to bring everything into spec. It's basicly a non-issue, inmo. 

Ron

I agree Ron... show me a stock block that doesn't have to be trimed 

Ya...no kidding ! 

Mine was off  .007 corner to corner on the driver side and the right vs left bank was off .005 from each other.  It took .020 to square and equalize the whole mess and bring it to zero with the 2355 6-pack slugs. There's a reason most manufacturers intentionally leave the pistons "below grade"....gives the machinist some real estate to work with. 



Ron

[Hot_Rodder]

Hmmm, I'm sure that the block will probably be off, and the .017" really isn't all that much, just never gave it much thought... Wonder why the builder is making a seeminly big deal about it.... I dun know. The heads, well, I posted a thread about them when I first got them in, they are the Stealth heads, but about the only thing 440 source about them is the, aluminum head itself and the valves (which were worked). Otherwise everything else was changed out with something else, Comp springs, 10* locks and retainers were added. The deck surface was even shaved to yield a certain given amount of cc's for the combustion chamber. The exhaust ports were opened up, and the intake ports were ported to max wedge size, flow #'s were listed, lemme see if I can find 'em again. I was hoping to build a 505 motor, but if I want really notice a difference between the 505 and the 493 then.... The cam, though I don't have the exact spec's yet, will be solid roller listed at a range of 255* - 270* @ .050" along with over .600" lift and a l/s of 114* so it's a bit of a healthy cam. The intake will be the Indy dual plane intake with max wedge ports, and a square bore carb. I'm thinking of running the QFT Q series carb line up. The kind of power I'm hoping for is somewhere between 600 - 650 hp and around 650 ft/lbs torque. I am planning on running 3.91 gears and the Dougs 452 headers (ceramic coated of course) and a dual 3" TTI exhaust with H pipes plus a very possible Dyno Max Ultra Flow mufflers. It's a plan, but some things can change. What else is there.... Dun know, lol.
Here's the flow #'s of my heads:

[Hot_Rodder]

bumpSo Ron, with these heads and such, would there be much of a difference between these two motors, and what might I have to look into changing to get that kind of power out of it still? One of the main reasons I'm kind of leaning away from changing cam spec's that my builder has figured out is because the springs are set up for that cam..... Somewhere I have the spec's..... Hmmm... Found 'em:
Up to .700" lift
250 lbs seat
625 lbs open
1.900" install height
240 lbs, 575 lbs @ .650" lift
1.150" coil bind height
The springs are the 1.550" Comp Cams street roller springs with 10* locks and retainers
The chamber was finished off with an 85 cc chamber
As I had said, these are the Stealth heads that were reworked by Modern Cylinder heads.... Can be seen here:
http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff60/hotrodderBB/StealthExhports.jpg
http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff60/hotrodderBB/StealthMaxWedgeintports.jpg
http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff60/hotrodderBB/StealthValveSpringsand440Sourcelogo.jpg
http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff60/hotrodderBB/FrontofStealthHeads.jpg

[firefighter3931]

The job that modern did looks great ! But those are not true max wedge port heads....the openings are MW but the dimensions at the pushrod pinch are not. They will behave similar to a std port head with a bit extra oomph. 

I'm wondering why such a wide LSA on the camshaft ? I would tighten up the lobes to make it hit harder in the sweet spot. 

Those springs look like typical "street roller" pieces and there should be no problem finding a cam to work with them. The Comp extreme energy street roller grinds are excellent and not hard on valvetrain parts. I would use a fully rollerized rocker arm with a setup like this....something like the Harland Sharp 1.5's would be an excellent choice.

Honestly, the 493 vs 505 won't be much difference.....the 505 will peak slightly earlier than the 493 but nothing that would be noticible with that top end package.


Ron

[Hot_Rodder]

Actually the Harlands are going to be the rockers for this app... The 1.5 ratio was the ratio that was factored in with the cam that the builder had spec'd out. Bad thing is though, I can't remember what roller lifters I'm planning on running, but they aren't cheap, and are supposed to be a bit better than the Comp Cams roller lifters... Push rods, custom need I say more? LOL. If I want notice any difference between the 505 and 493, then I'll go with the 493 and run the Diamond pistons and such... I'm thinking that the 493 uses a 4.15 stroke versus the 505s 4.25" stroke crank? If so, maybe that will give me a little bit of room, though probably not enough to really notice a difference inside the motor, I am wanting to keep the factory style oil pickup setup, just running a matching pickup to the Milodon oil pan that I have sitting around... Of course, the engine builder knows a bunch of tricks/mods to do to the block for better oiling...