Timing and Timing!

[pullrock]

Ok guys please help,

I just moved back to Northern California and have been having problems getting my 440 Charger to run correctly.  I had the car tuned to run in the high altitude in Colorado and now that I am back in California I start the process of setting it up for no altitude.  Here are my problems...  I started by rejetted the Carb to what is was setup like before moving to Colorado.  Adjusted the floats down a little.  Seem to be running really rich at the time.  After all that the car still didn't run right so I decided to take it to a local shop to simply check my carb setup and timing.  The Mechanic told me he was unable to set the timing on the car.  Here is what he said "Timing indicator off scale.  Checked TDC on motor, ok.  Tired to set timing again and found timing still way off (initial 44, total 118) Possible balancer problem."  He than called MSD and they said to check for electrical interference.  He found several ignition wires are laying across each other and may be the cross firing.  Let me say that engine has been in my car for over 4 years with the wires in that same location....

Has anyone run into this and any ideas?

Thanks!

Eric

[flyinlow]

Sometimes MSD ignitions cause adjustable timing lights to not indicate correctly. Try a basic timing light. Try timing off the #6 cylinder if you think it is a wire problem. 

As a ballpark 34-38* total timing, base timing plus centrifical  at 2500 rpm or above.

[Chryco Psycho]

I time by ear , bring the RPM up to 2500 or so & advance the timing until the rpm quits rising , back it off a couple of degrees & you are good to go

[pullrock]

I will give that a try for sure.  I was wondering what other symptoms the car would have if the balancer really did indeed slip or move?  I guess he is talking about the out side of it as I know it would have a hard spinning around on the crack. 

Thanks again!

Eric

[billschroeder5842]

Okay,

i like the idea of "timing by ear"....

Do you have the vacumm advance hose on or off on the carb? Is it as simple as spinning the distributor till the engine stops increasing?

[flyinlow]

Even if the balance outer ring had slipped , 118*- 44* = 74* of centrifugal + vacuum advance ,if used. I have never worked on a Mopar engine with that much advance in the distributor.

Not sure on damper symptoms. Slightly more vibration? Harmonics at certain RPM? If it was loose enough it would make a quite a racket. It could do some damage if it came apart at high RPM.

[Chryco Psycho]

the inner hub can be off to if the key was left out or sheared off , I have also seen badly damaged keyways in the crank , , if the rubber is bad in the damper the outer ring can be waaay off , especially in a 4 spd car . Definatly worth checking things out before something worse happens !! If it is a Steel crank the damper will be zero balanced anyway so the balance will not change .

[Chryco Psycho]

Okay,

i like the idea of "timing by ear"....

Do you have the vacumm advance hose on or off on the carb? Is it as simple as spinning the distributor till the engine stops increasing?

Time it the way you run it , generally I do not use vacuum advance . Basically yes advancing the timing until the RPM quits rising will put it very close to optimal timing , if you get pinging you have to retard the timing a bit , if you imagine a hill climb I try to put the timing at the top of the climb just before it goes flat at the top . I am more concerned with total timing or timing above 2500 RPM rather than timing at idle , the engine will spend most of its time running in total timing above 2500 & as long as it idles well & starts ok the timing at idle is far less important .

[pullrock]

I had some time to take a closer look at the car tonight and low and behold the jacka$$ left two spark plug wires off .  Two questions here, how can you setup the carb if the car is missing?  Secondly, how can a Mechanic of 20 years not be able to tell that the car is missing that bad to even check the spark plug wires.  How can you return a car to a customer running worse then when it was given to you!  This is very disappointing....  I am gonig to take a test ride tomorrow and attempt to dial in the timing by ear and see how it does!

Eric

[jlatessa]

440 Steel cranks can have either balancer...one with the standard rods
and the one with an eccentric on it for 69-1/2 A-12s and 70 up HP blocks with the big rods.
Those will also have a weight on the flywheel or converter.

Joe

[maxwellwedge]

440 Steel cranks can have either balancer...one with the standard rods
and the one with an eccentric on it for 69-1/2 A-12s and 70 up HP blocks with the big rods.
Those will also have a weight on the flywheel or converter.

Joe

FYI  -  69-1/2's have standard 69 crank and rods. Neither mentioned have extra weight on the flywheel or the converter.  The 70-up HP's have the heavier 6-pack rods and have a unique harmonic balancer. Cast cranks....that's a different story.

[billschroeder5842]

I tried the "time by ear" I had my daughter bring the car up to 2500 and I set it. What I noticed is that it ran pretty good at 2500-3000 rpm but was real rough (even backfire-it NEVER it that) upon take off.

I threw a light on it and found that "my ear" had adjusted it to basically TDC.

I moved it back to 12 by light and we will see what happens....

[jlatessa]

By 69-1/2s, I'm referring to 6 pack engined A-12 cars.
I owned one and it did indeed have the heavier rods and a different balance system.

Joe

[BSB67]

By 69-1/2s, I'm referring to 6 pack engined A-12 cars.
I owned one and it did indeed have the heavier rods and a different balance system.

Joe

I don't think so.  They also had the std. 440 hp piston w/ 2.03 CH and no reliefs.

[maxwellwedge]

By 69-1/2s, I'm referring to 6 pack engined A-12 cars.
I owned one and it did indeed have the heavier rods and a different balance system.

Joe

Ummmmmm - No.

Yours was changed.....Honest.

[Chryco Psycho]

I tried the "time by ear" I had my daughter bring the car up to 2500 and I set it. What I noticed is that it ran pretty good at 2500-3000 rpm but was real rough (even backfire-it NEVER it that) upon take off.

I threw a light on it and found that "my ear" had adjusted it to basically TDC.

I moved it back to 12 by light and we will see what happens....

so the advance curve is too long , I assume you had the vacuum connected . so by advancing back to 12* you are over advanced at 2500 + so you need to shorten the curve either by leaving the vacuum disconnected or using an allen wrench to dial it off