camshaft degree and timing question

[Heck2G14]

Having some timing problems in my 69' 440. I went through past threads and got alot of good information I want to try. Heres a few questions I still need answered though
It starts and idles and normal drives great, I stomp on it and it spits and sputters, pretty sure its a timing issue ( fuel tank, fuel sending unit,3/8 fuel line,fuel pump, Proform 750 carb...all new)
Initial timing 16  Total timing 36      ( I have to check curve yet)

I had a Comp camshaft that I bought new and put in my 383. I had the cam degreed during install and It was dead on at dot to dot timing chain. I then pulled this camshaft and decided to put it in a 440 I had ( I know, I should have bought a new one), When it was put in 440, The camshaft was not degreed when placed in 440. My question is if the cam was on at dot to dot in the 383, will it still be on at dot to dot in the 440??

second question, Im going to check my advance curve in the factory rebuilt distributor ( local parts store ) to see if this is effecting the timing issues im having. If I should need to put a weaker spring in the distributor is this something I can get at a locol parts store most likely or where do you suggest I get something like that?
Thanks for any help

[aifilaw]

define spits and sputters...
does it do that as you approach higher RPM's? maybe you have valve float issues
does it do it initially, but if you ease into the throttle you need to tune your carb's cam and squirter... et cetera.

[Chryco Psycho]

The cam timing could be off , was the same chain used in both engines as the keyway may not be machined correctly if a different chain was used , however if it starts eaisly & idles & runs well at lower rpm I doubt it is cam timing , I would be looking more at fuel supply isuues , cap rotor wires plugs etc , gap in the dist , some kind of ignition breakdown

[Heck2G14]

yeah same timing chain

heres some numbers please see if this looks like its ok. ( I think I did it right ) I set timing w/ timing light (Actron digital) at 15 base then ran it up in RPM increments and got these numbers. Does this sound right or did I do something wrong?
1250 RPM  ----------22.9 timing
1450 RPM  ----------30.5 Timing
1650 RPM------------32.5
1850 RPM------------34.2
2000 RPM------------35.6
2350 RPM------------37.2
2500 RPM------------40.0
2800 RPM------------41.4      Not sure what ya mean by all in at 2800 - 3000 RPM 

[ChgrSteve67]

All in means all the timing you plan on giving it by 2800 - 3000

Under load (no vacuum) you don't really want much more than 36.
When you take you foot off (vacuum comes back) then the timing can go beyond 36.

How does the car run with a base timing of 12 degrees?
Also Just for curiosity try plugging you vacuum advance pod and see what happens.
You may have a bad VA pod.

Steve

[Heck2G14]

Yeah the vaccum has been disconnected from the start.
So I do timing by ear and advance it to its highest idle set. set Idle at 900 RPM. says timing is 37.6 at this. Idels good with good power but Pistons are pinging at hard acceleration at this timing mark and its is very slow to turn over and wont start when warm. Motor is a 69 stock with a mild comp. cam( something like a 484/491 lift, need exact info. I can dig them up)/ rpm performer intake and headers. I imagine I need some carb adjusting due to just smacking the carb on out of the box but I was thinking lets get timing figured out first, If I can
any help is much appreciated

[375instroke]

you're saying 37.6degrees advance at 900RPM?  That doesn't match your chart you posted and your first post said 36 total.  Very confusing.  It pings, it's hard to turn over, and won't start when hot?  These are all symptoms of timing too high?  Like said before, you want about 36 degrees total, that's initial plus mechanical, no vacuum, by 3000RPM.  Swapping the cam from one motor that was degreed OK to another does not mean it will be fine.  The crank to cam centerline may not be the same, and as said before, the crank key may be off.  So when's the spit and sputter?  Off idle WOT or high RPM, or what?

[firefighter3931]

Get a timing light on it and back off the idle advance to 17-18* and see how it runs. This should put you at 38-39* total @ 2800 and help with the detonation issues. 

Also, try to verify the maximum degrees of advance and at what RPM it stops advancing. From the looks of the numbers posted you have ~ 19* of mechanical advance built into the distributor assuming that it's not advancing anymore past 2800 rpm. The speed of the ignition curve looks fine. 


As for the cam degree question....unless the timing set was transferred over from the other engine it's not safe to assume that the installed centerline is correct. Often, timing gears are mis stamped. Try tuning first and see how it responds before worrying about the cam. 


Ron

[Heck2G14]

OK answer some of your questions.

To clear up some confusion here, Reference 375s question. The first chart was the idle set by timing light and decided Id mess around a bit and do it by ear and thats where I got the 37.6. two different initial locations. Hope that clears up that confusion.

and Ron,
I set Initial at 17 here are the RPM breakdown increments. Idle 900 RPMs

1300 RPM---------27.1 Timing
1600---------------34.0
1900---------------35.0
2200---------------37.7
2600---------------41.0
2800---------------43.0
3000---------------45.0
3200---------------46.0

seems responsive at this setting and definitely not pinging as obviously at a parked acceleration like it was, Ill take it out tomorrow (raining now) to see what its like under load acceleration and of course it cranks over awfully hard at this setting. I see you said my advanced is 19. Can you tell me how you come to this number. Right now Im trouble shooting through the distributor to see if its curve is fine or do I need to step up to an MP one.

[firefighter3931]

OK answer some of your questions.

To clear up some confusion here, Reference 375s question. The first chart was the idle set by timing light and decided Id mess around a bit and do it by ear and thats where I got the 37.6. two different initial locations. Hope that clears up that confusion.

and Ron,
I set Initial at 17 here are the RPM breakdown increments. Idle 900 RPMs

1300 RPM---------27.1 Timing
1600---------------34.0
1900---------------35.0
2200---------------37.7
2600---------------41.0
2800---------------43.0
3000---------------45.0
3200---------------46.0

seems responsive at this setting and definitely not pinging as obviously at a parked acceleration like it was, Ill take it out tomorrow (raining now) to see what its like under load acceleration and of course it cranks over awfully hard at this setting. I see you said my advanced is 19. Can you tell me how you come to this number. Right now Im trouble shooting through the distributor to see if its curve is fine or do I need to step up to an MP one.

So.... you're saying that it stops advancing at 3200 and it's showing 46* ? Does it advance anymore if you increase the engine speed. This needs to be answered. 

Your previous post was showing 19* of mechanical advance but you hadn't increased the engine speed to the point that it had stopped advancing. I'm trying to determine the maximum amout of mechanical advance which is the difference between the base (idle) timing and the total timing.

Based on the latest figures you have 29* mechanical advance which is the difference between the 17* at idle and the 46* at 3200


What cam are you running in this engine ? Hotter cams like more timing at idle...usually in the 16-20* range and the total should be 36-38* to keep it from detonating. A distributor with 18-20 degrees of mechanical advance will allow you to tune within these parameters. The speed of the timing curve is adjusted with the springs under the breaker plate 

What distributor are you running ?

The more information you can provide....the better



Ron

[aifilaw]

The car will idle fine out of gear, and sometimes even in gear with 20-30 degree's of timing. That's what they tried to accomplish (they being the manufacturer) with the vacuum advance... but typical engines street or strip I rarely see need more than 44 or 45 total timing at the end, which makes for a very short curve.
This is why most people remove their vacuum advance module and weld short their advance slots and stiffen the springs in there. Thereby giving themselves things like 18 degree's at idle and 40 total.

You will find that although it sounds like it runs best cranking the advance up to 32 degrees at idle, when you put it in gear or even slightly accelerate past that in gear it does horribly. setting at idle by ear does very little, and its better to have to little than too much.
Try making sure you have 35 or so total timing and actually drive it, then tweak up or down.
If you really want to get down to the nitty gritty then you need to recurve the distributer, or skip the whole darn manual process and get a quick-programmable setup.

[Heck2G14]

Cam Card

Engine: CRB XE274H-10
Part#: 21-224-4     
Grind #: CRB XE274H-10
                                 Intake     Exhaust
Valve adjustment            Hyd         Hyd
Gross valve lift               .488         .491
Duration @
     .006      Tappet lift    274          286
valve timing                  open          close
@    .006 Int               31 BTDC        63 ATDC
              Exh.             77BBDC         29 ATDC
These specs are for cam installed
@    106.0     Intake center line
                                 Intake        Exhaust
Duration @    .050         230           236
Lobe Lift                    .3250          .3270
Rocker arm ratio             .00            .00
Lobe seperation           110.0

911-16 Springs required
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
69 440 CI Stock
Eddy RPM performer Intake
Headers
Comp cam ( listed above)
750 DP proform
Electronic ignition w/ Silver box and Hot shot II coil  ( distributor is a factory rebuilt, not a mp)
I wasnt realizing before that when I would set timing at 17* that the motor would idle up and I would reset the idle and i wouldnt recheck and timing would change when idle set at 17 so now it truly is at 17* and 900 Rpm at idle. Here are the new numbers with the proper timing
900 RPM------17*
1250 RPM-----27.3*
1500-----------35.0*
1750-----------35.8
2000-----------37
2250-----------39.5
2500-----------41.5
2750-----------43.5
3000-----------46.5
3200-----------46.5
3500-----------46.5

[aifilaw]

There's some other factors missing, but it seems to me as though you could drop 4 or 5 degree's off your total timing

[firefighter3931]

Cam Card

Engine: CRB XE274H-10
Part#: 21-224-4     
Grind #: CRB XE274H-10
                                 Intake     Exhaust
Valve adjustment            Hyd         Hyd
Gross valve lift               .488         .491
Duration @
     .006      Tappet lift    274          286
valve timing                  open          close
@    .006 Int               31 BTDC        63 ATDC
              Exh.             77BBDC         29 ATDC
These specs are for cam installed
@    106.0     Intake center line
                                 Intake        Exhaust
Duration @    .050         230           236
Lobe Lift                    .3250          .3270
Rocker arm ratio             .00            .00
Lobe seperation           110.0

911-16 Springs required
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
69 440 CI Stock
Eddy RPM performer Intake
Headers
Comp cam ( listed above)
750 DP proform
Electronic ignition w/ Silver box and Hot shot II coil  ( distributor is a factory rebuilt, not a mp)
I wasnt realizing before that when I would set timing at 17* that the motor would idle up and I would reset the idle and i wouldnt recheck and timing would change when idle set at 17 so now it truly is at 17* and 900 Rpm at idle. Here are the new numbers with the proper timing
900 RPM------17*
1250 RPM-----27.3*
1500-----------35.0*
1750-----------35.8
2000-----------37
2250-----------39.5
2500-----------41.5
2750-----------43.5
3000-----------46.5
3200-----------46.5
3500-----------46.5

Ok, that info helps out 

Two things ;

(1) it has too much mechanical advance.....you need a distributor with 20* of mech advance and your's has 29*  There are two ways to fix this...you can pull yours apart and weld up the slots to limit mechanical advance or you can purchase a new MP distributor that is adjustable. One way or another you have to fix it.

(2) The rate of advance is coming in too fast. The springs are too light so you need heavier ones on the advance weights to slow it down. One medium spring and one light spring works well in most cases....sometimes 2 medium springs, but that is combination specific and you have to experiment to see what works best.

The XE274 is a descent cam and it will work best with 16-18* at idle and 36-38* total



Ron

[Heck2G14]

Alright, thanks for all your help guys, This thread was very helpful and very informative, Im off to order that MP distributor you suggested Ron and Ill let you all know how it went. Thanks again all!!!!!!!!!

[aifilaw]

Suggestion:
Holley, and a few other manufacturers, make a fully programmable timing module with the curve-less distributers, it costs near the same as the MP distributer Ron mentioned, and guarantees control and timing, I prefer it myself.

[firefighter3931]

Alright, thanks for all your help guys, This thread was very helpful and very informative, Im off to order that MP distributor you suggested Ron and Ill let you all know how it went. Thanks again all!!!!!!!!!

Good choice.  The newer MP distributors are adhjustable but come with ~20* of mechanical advance and a nice rate of advance from the factory. You should be able to drop it right in and run it as is. 

Keep us up to speed on your progress. 



Ron

[Heck2G14]

OK got the new MP distributor, Dropped it in set initial at 17 and heres the numbers/
900 RPM ------ 17
1250-------------23
1500------------27
1750------------32
2000------------33
2250------------34
2500------------37
2750------------38
3000------------40
3250------------41
3500------------41

Too much mechanical advance yet?If this is needed how is it adjusted on this MP distributor?
I did not adjust distributor after recieveing it at all. I did also get The Mr. Gasket advanced curve kit P# 925B but I did not install it yet. The distributor definetly helped on the back firing issue but now I want to get it tuned in with curve and all that stuff. The questions I have are.
I still hear some slight pinging( pistons slapping)at hard acceleration.  Is this what u all are calling detonation?
any help is much appreciated   thxs guys

[aifilaw]

Detonation sounds like frozen corn kernels in a tin can.
As far as timing goes, If you have it then you need to bring your timing down in that region

[Heck2G14]

OK, thanks, thats what it was doing.  I started messing with the timing and got rid of the detonation. I also noticed that the mechanical curve is now *22 on the distributor. Right now the timing is at 16*Initial, 38 total ,all in at 2800-3000 rpm. sounds about right dont it? I noticed the timing would go up to 40* at around 2700RPM then come down and stay put at 38* around 2900-3000 RPM. Any concern there?  Although I have gotten rid of the detonation and back fire ( thank the good lord and you guys on the forums ) now I have the task of getting it to start when its warm. any suggestions?

[firefighter3931]

OK, thanks, thats what it was doing.  I started messing with the timing and got rid of the detonation. I also noticed that the mechanical curve is now *22 on the distributor. Right now the timing is at 16*Initial, 38 total ,all in at 2800-3000 rpm. sounds about right dont it? I noticed the timing would go up to 40* at around 2700RPM then come down and stay put at 38* around 2900-3000 RPM. Any concern there?  Although I have gotten rid of the detonation and back fire ( thank the good lord and you guys on the forums ) now I have the task of getting it to start when its warm. any suggestions?

Good work, that sounds just about perfect 16/38@3000 should keep it pretty happy and detonation free. 

As for the hard starting problem....i've found that a mini starter will turn over just about anything...hot or cold. They are abundantly available in the scrap yards for less than $50. A late model Dakota or Minivan V6 unit will work fine.


Again...excellent job ! 



Ron

[Mefirst]

....i've found that a mini starter will turn over just about anything...hot or cold. They are abundantly available in the scrap yards for less than $50. A late model Dakota or Minivan V6 unit will work fine.

Ron

The MP mini starter is awsome, but it will burn to a crisp if trying to start a 440 that has 7 stuck piston pins

[aifilaw]

As for the hard starting problem....i've found that a mini starter will turn over just about anything...hot or cold. They are abundantly available in the scrap yards for less than $50. A late model Dakota or Minivan V6 unit will work fine.

Ron

Hate to hi-jack, but my old 383(430in) with 13.5:1 static CR killed a mini-starter in less than a month. I finally found something that could take the punishment, but only after heavily wrapping it in heat-shield as well, and it required bending header tubes... can't remember what I used now unfortunately.

[firefighter3931]

As for the hard starting problem....i've found that a mini starter will turn over just about anything...hot or cold. They are abundantly available in the scrap yards for less than $50. A late model Dakota or Minivan V6 unit will work fine.

Ron

Hate to hi-jack, but my old 383(430in) with 13.5:1 static CR killed a mini-starter in less than a month. I finally found something that could take the punishment, but only after heavily wrapping it in heat-shield as well, and it required bending header tubes... can't remember what I used now unfortunately.

Well i suppose anything is possible. My buddy has a supercharged 440 and was having starter heat soak issues. I had an old mini that came out of my 96 Ram Sport lying around and gave it too him. He cleaned it up and it's been running in his car since and it's exposed to lots of heat from his uncoated SuperComps. 

Several friends use them in their high compression race cars with excellent results.  



Ron

[oldschool]

As for the hard starting problem....i've found that a mini starter will turn over just about anything...hot or cold. They are abundantly available in the scrap yards for less than $50. A late model Dakota or Minivan V6 unit will work fine.

Ron

Hate to hi-jack, but my old 383(430in) with 13.5:1 static CR killed a mini-starter in less than a month. I finally found something that could take the punishment, but only after heavily wrapping it in heat-shield as well, and it required bending header tubes... can't remember what I used now unfortunately.

i use the mopar mini starter in 3 cars w/ over 13.5 cr. and 500" they also have tight fitting headers.one of them is over 10 years old! also have one in a 572" w/ over 13.5 cr. i also bought all of mine brand new,they are cheep so buy new.