440Source Stealth Heads--Advice

[Chatt69chgr]

I bought a set of the new stealth heads (84cc) from 440Source for my 440 engine.  Should I consider replacing the valve locks, retainers, and springs for better ones.  What should I have the machine shop check on these heads before installing them?  I won't be doing any racing and don't plan on revving above 6000 rpm maximum.  I was planning on usiing the stock rockers and pushrods.  Will be using a Engle K56 cam.  I would appreciate any and all advice. 

[firefighter3931]

I bought a set of the new stealth heads (84cc) from 440Source for my 440 engine.  Should I consider replacing the valve locks, retainers, and springs for better ones.  What should I have the machine shop check on these heads before installing them?  I won't be doing any racing and don't plan on revving above 6000 rpm maximum.  I was planning on usiing the stock rockers and pushrods.  Will be using a Engle K56 cam.  I would appreciate any and all advice. 

The valvesprings will be fine with the k56. From what i've seen posted the locks/retainers are hit and miss....if in doubt replace them. I would also have the guide clearances checked and the valvejob looked at as well. 


Ron

[metallicareload99]

I bought the 440 Source heads and I plan on using them with the Engle K-56 also.  It was recommended that I replace the locks and retainers on my set of 440 Source heads.  I haven't heard anything bad about the springs though.  This is what I am going to use:

http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?part=CCA%2D611%2D16&FROM=MG

http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?part=CCA%2D741%2D16&FROM=MG

Let us know how it works out, it might be awhile before I get to put mine to use

[mally69]

The valvesprings will be fine with the k56. From what i've seen posted the locks/retainers are hit and miss....if in doubt replace them. I would also have the guide clearances checked and the valvejob looked at as well. 


Ron

Hit and miss  what do you mean. Has any broken.. Just curious before I go bolting them on AGAIN. 

[Musicman]

The only actual problem that I have read about with keepers or whatever on any site, was the issue that mally69 had with his roller rocker breaking away and knocking one of the assemblies apart... and that wasn't the fault of the head components, the rocker caused that damage. I have heard a lot of hear-say, opinions and other conjecture however, but no actual first hand facts other than mally69's one unfortunate experience.

[Chatt69chgr]

Those comp cam valve locks and retainers look pretty good Metallicareload99.  Thanks for the info and links.  Would the Comp Cams High Energy Flat Tappet Hydraulic lifter (their P/N 822-16) be a good choice?  I'am looking at a 6000 rpm and below 440.

[firefighter3931]

The valvesprings will be fine with the k56. From what i've seen posted the locks/retainers are hit and miss....if in doubt replace them. I would also have the guide clearances checked and the valvejob looked at as well. 


Ron

Hit and miss  what do you mean. Has any broken.. Just curious before I go bolting them on AGAIN. 

Some of the pics i've seen had the valve heights messed up.....the keepers looked to be sitting too low in the retainer. Personally, i like to leave nothing to chance....a dropped valve will ruin your day in a hurry. 

You've allready been down that road allready....make sure you don't go down it again. 



Ron

[frederick]

Hi all,

I'm also thinking of purchasing a pair of heads.
What i noticed:
http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?part=CCA%2D611%2D16&FROM=MG
These locks are designed to be used with lash caps.
Do the 440 source heads come with them?
If not can you fit them without upsetting geometry?

Frederick

[Chatt69chgr]

What are lash caps?  I thought these locks and the retainers recommended (both 10 degree) were just better versions of the 7 degree ones that Comp Cams sells.  The locks and retainers that come with the Stealth Heads are 7 degree.  I found by surfing that there is a machined lock and a stamped version. 

Simply stated----I bought a set of the Stealth Heads that are supposed to be bolt on out of the box.  Now I am hearing that you shouldn't bolt them on.  You should make sure that the valve guides have the proper clearance and that the valves have been ground properly---apparently, they are not sometimes.  Also, I understand that the springs supplied are OK to use but the locks and retainers may need to be replaced with better ones.  I assume that the valve guide seals are OK.

So could some of you experts provide some guidance to those of us not sufficiently schooled yet.  Thanks. 

[firefighter3931]

Hi all,

I'm also thinking of purchasing a pair of heads.
What i noticed:
http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?part=CCA%2D611%2D16&FROM=MG
These locks are designed to be used with lash caps.
Do the 440 source heads come with them?
If not can you fit them without upsetting geometry?

Frederick

The Source heads don't come with lash caps or 10* keepers. Lash caps can mess with geometry and require an adjustable valvetrain.

Any reason you want to use lash caps ?


Ron

[firefighter3931]

 I found by surfing that there is a machined lock and a stamped version. 

That is correct.....machined locks are far superior to a stamped lock. The keeper material is hardened and more durable.

Edelbrock heads come with 7* machined locks and chrome moly retainers....pretty tough stuff. Unless you are running a really agressive roller cam a 7* lock will be fine as long as it & the retainer are high quality.

Lash caps are often used to correct valvetrain geometry issues with roller rocker arms where the sweep pattern across the valve tip is less than ideal.



Ron

[frederick]

The Source heads don't come with lash caps or 10* keepers. Lash caps can mess with geometry and require an adjustable valvetrain.

Any reason you want to use lash caps ?


Ron

If it's not necessary I don't want to run lash caps, I just checked the link posted by metallicareload99 and wondered why he would want them.
OK, i don't want to go to an adjustable valvetrain so no valve lash caps.

Thanks,
Frederick

p.s. valve lock pics:
http://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=4133873&page=0&fpart=8&vc=1

[Chatt69chgr]

Metallicare and I both had the same intention:  we had read on here that the valve locks and retainers on the 440 Source Stealth heads might not be the best and that they should be replaced.  I have looked at the Comp Cams online catalog (crappy as it is) and by using it and the Summit Racing website have determined that Comp Cams doesn't offer a 1.550 inch retainer in 7*.  But they do offer a 10* retainer for this size outside diameter valve spring which is what is on the 440Source head.  They also offer a super valve lock in 10*, single groove, both with and without lash cap recess.  I don't think I need lash caps from the posts above and planned on keeping the 440 Source springs since folks on here said they would work OK (they are good to .600 inch lift) so the Comp Cams parts I have found are:

Comp Cam P/N 613-16 Super Valve Locks----10*, for 11/32 in valvestem dia, single groove, machined, without lash cap recess----$22.95 from Summit.
Comp Cam P/N 741-16 Valve Spring Retainers----10*, for 1.550 OD Valve spring dia, for single or dual springs, machined----$54.95.

Com Cams offers the 822-16 hyd flat tappet lifter----they don't make them but say they have them made to their specs.  Said there was only two or three manf for these now.  440Source gets theirs from Johnson---supposedly USA made.  Engle gets theirs from Stanidyne.  I have no idea which is the best or if it matters in a 6000 rpm engine.

Finally, there are several sources for the zinc additive you need to put in your oil to keep from having hydraulic cam failure.  GM has a new formulation that came out in January 2008---a new EOS.  When I called the local dealer he was not aware of it.  Thought you couldn't get EOS anymore----you can't get the old stuff but this is probably better (get from www.gmdirect.com if your local dealer tries to charge you retail---they sell wholesale).  Comp Cams sells their version---couldn't tell me how much Zinc was in it.  Lucas Oil sells a version.  Said you could get it at NAPA but I havn't tried yet.  Need to use not only in break-in but add to every oil change from what I have read.

Is it OK to use the 10* locks and retainers instead of the 7*.  Pardon my ignorance but I just want to make sure.  I got the idea they they were perhaps better.  Of course, in this case, unless I try to find another source, it's a moot point since Comp Cams doesn't have a 7* lock/retainer available for the 440Source valvespring. 

[Musicman]

Check Comp Cams at Summit Racing... I could have sworn that there was a bunch of them listed there. 

[Chatt69chgr]

I called Comp Cams today and their tech person told me that the 10* locks and retainers were better than 7* pieces were, ie, they were an upgrade.  Seems like these would be good replacements for the original pieces.  Now I don't want anybody to get the idea that I am knocking 440Source here.  Just thought that it would be prudent to upgrade these components.  Comp has valve stem seals that are made for .530 bronze bushing and 11/32 inch valve stem so I'll probably replace those while I have it all apart too.  May buy the hydraulic lifters from them too.  They told me they were made in the USA to their specs.

[Musicman]

Don't be afraid to upgrade if it makes you more comfortable.
Items like Locks and Retainers are fairly cheap, so why not. 

[firefighter3931]

I called Comp Cams today and their tech person told me that the 10* locks and retainers were better than 7* pieces were, ie, they were an upgrade.  Seems like these would be good replacements for the original pieces.  Now I don't want anybody to get the idea that I am knocking 440Source here.  Just thought that it would be prudent to upgrade these components.  Comp has valve stem seals that are made for .530 bronze bushing and 11/32 inch valve stem so I'll probably replace those while I have it all apart too.  May buy the hydraulic lifters from them too.  They told me they were made in the USA to their specs.

Those are all worthwhile upgrades....and money well spent. 


Ron

[Joshs68]

I took a pair of brand new heads straight to the machineist so he could take them apart and check everything. They were not 440source heads. Mine were Mopar performance aluminum that I bought assembled but they were never ran. I would do that to any heads just for piece of mind. Things happen, things get beat aound in shipping. It doesnt take a lot of time for someone competant to disassemble them and give them a look. Then you wont have to wonder and they may find a small inexpensive part that would have wiped out your whole engine. I would do this to any pre assembled head , I do it to carbs as well. ever hear of anyone finding junk in the bowls of a new carb? same thing as far as I am concearned

[frederick]

While fitting the compcam retainers and locks to the stealth heads today I noticed something:
The retainers sit higher on the valvestem causing an increase in valvespring fitted lenght of about 0.040".
If I'm correct this will cause an decrease in spring pressure and possibly valve float.
Do I need to fit shims(which are not easy to come by here) or just fit the original retainers + locks?
I am using a fairly mild cam: Lunati 60301:
Advertised Duration (Int/Exh): 256/262
Duration @ .050 (Int/Exh): 213/220
Gross Valve Lift (Int/Exh): .454/.475

Retainers and locks:
Comp Cam P/N 613-16 Super Valve Locks----10*, for 11/32 in valvestem dia, single groove, machined, without lash cap recess----$22.95 from Summit.
Comp Cam P/N 741-16 Valve Spring Retainers----10*, for 1.550 OD Valve spring dia, for single or dual springs, machined----$54.95.

Frederick

[Chatt69chgr]

When I talked to Engle about the K56 and gave them the specs on the Stealth heads they said that the springs would be OK that came on them-----maybe just a little on the high side on spring pressure but OK.  So if these Comp Cams locks and retainers lessen it some, I would be better off.  Thats for my build and rpm range.  May not be the same for the Lunati cam.

[firefighter3931]

Frederick, you might end up having to shim the valvesprings but you won't know that until you have the pressures checked. As long as you have 120 lbs on the seat and 300lbs open you should be good to go.


Ron

[AKcharger]

I'm running a K56 with my heads. I haven't cranked it yet but I did bring them into my Machine shop for them to look them over...they said everything weas good so I'm comfortable

AK

[frederick]

Well I extrapolated the spring data given at 440source and found that with an increase of fitted lenght of 0.040" the pressure will be 116lbs.
So I am definitely going to have them checked and shimmed.

Thanks

Frederik

[Chatt69chgr]

Hey Frederick-----do you have a part number and source for the shims?

[frederick]

Hi,

Well you could get them here:
http://store.summitracing.com/egnsearch.asp?N=700+115+%2D125439&D=%2D125439
You will have to check the measurements.

But I'm going to check locally- just sending these shims will not justify the postage cost to europe.

Frederick