Hard Times?

[JimShine]

The government holds some of the responsibility, but so do we, the citizens. The country in general needs a reality check. Most of us have been living far beyond our means and not stashing money away to provide security during times like this. Instead people are over extending themselves buying stuff they don't need. I understand we are free to make choices, but it appears that much of our society has been making very poor choices. I can point out more blue collar guys with a recreational vehicle, boat, collector car, multiple cell phones, home theater, etc. than guys that have real college funds and decent health plans for their kids. But then again, look at our example, the government. They are no better with handling money.

[Brock Samson]

very well said Jim...
there's these plastic cards arriving in the mail every few Mos... 


here's one of my favorite quotes...

From his autobiography, Wanderer:

To be truly challenging, a voyage, like a life, must rest on a firm foundation of financial unrest. Otherwise, you are doomed to a routine traverse, the kind known to yachtsmen who play with their boats at sea... cruising, it is called. Voyaging belongs to seamen, and to the wanderers of the world who cannot, or will not, fit in. If you are contemplating a voyage and you have the means, abandon the venture until your fortunes change. Only then will you know what the sea is all about. I've always wanted to sail to the south seas, but I can't afford it." What these men can't afford is not to go. They are enmeshed in the cancerous discipline of security. And in the worship of security we fling our lives beneath the wheels of routine - and before we know it our lives are gone. What does a man need - really need? A few pounds of food each day, heat and shelter, six feet to lie down in - and some form of working activity that will yield a sense of accomplishment. That's all - in the material sense, and we know it. But we are brainwashed by our economic system until we end up in a tomb beneath a pyramid of time payments, mortgages, preposterous gadgetry, playthings that divert our attention for the sheer idiocy of the charade. The years thunder by, The dreams of youth grow dim where they lie caked in dust on the shelves of patience. Before we know it, the tomb is sealed. Where, then, lies the answer? In choice. Which shall it be: bankruptcy of purse or bankruptcy of life?

Sterling Hayden (March 26, 1916 – May 23, 1986) was an American actor and author.

[Mike DC]

I can point out more blue collar guys with a recreational vehicle, boat, collector car, multiple cell phones, home theater, etc. than guys that have real college funds and decent health plans for their kids.

I totally agree with you here, up to a point.  But I also think too much gets made of this issue some cases.




A home theater can be built for a one-time cost of a few thousand bucks.  Same for an ATV. 
Cell phones are measured in hundreds of dollars. 
Collector cars?  Boats?  Maybe $5-25K for those things in a lot of cases? 


On the other hand, a decent college education can easily cost $20K in total.  Per kid.  Per year.  For just a state school.
Say they've got 3 kids, going for 4-5 years apiece (forcibly happens often with modern college class structures) . . . we're up around $250-300 grand so far, and we're still in state schools.  Denying yourself that extra $2000 home theater or even the $12,000 Trans Am isn't gonna make up much of that difference.



Your point is valid but I think people can overstate it sometimes. 

Especially with the electronic gizmos.  People always think of electronic stuff as "expensive" even though a new Nintendo system can cost less than a lot of kids' average mountain bikes.  On the adult-money scale they're usually not really that much.

My mother used to give me crap as a teenager about buying video games, as if her generation was much to frugal for "extravagances" like that.  But in raw dollars, the occasional video games I bought probably didn't add up to as much money as just what I spent school backpacks & supplies per semester.

[JimShine]

Even when I was college age, I don't think any of my freinds had college taken care of 100%, and I don't think it should be. But you should be prepared to contribute to it. The savings account also provides a handy nest egg during economic times like this. This is why it is the responsible thing to maintain such an account. People that overextend themselves naturally do not have the resources to make this happen, and much of middle class America is overextended. There is no justification for buying what you can't afford, be it a $10K car or a $20 video game.

[Chad L. Magee]

I can point out more blue collar guys with a recreational vehicle, boat, collector car, multiple cell phones, home theater, etc. than guys that have real college funds and decent health plans for their kids.

I totally agree with you here, up to a point.  But I also think too much gets made of this issue some cases.




A home theater can be built for a one-time cost of a few thousand bucks.  Same for an ATV. 
Cell phones are measured in hundreds of dollars. 
Collector cars?  Boats?  Maybe $5-25K for those things in a lot of cases? 


On the other hand, a decent college education can easily cost $20K in total.  Per kid.  Per year.  For just a state school.
Say they've got 3 kids, going for 4-5 years apiece (forcibly happens often with modern college class structures) . . . we're up around $250-300 grand so far, and we're still in state schools.  Denying yourself that extra $2000 home theater or even the $12,000 Trans Am isn't gonna make up much of that difference.



Your point is valid but I think people can overstate it sometimes. 

Especially with the electronic gizmos.  People always think of electronic stuff as "expensive" even though a new Nintendo system can cost less than a lot of kids' average mountain bikes.  On the adult-money scale they're usually not really that much.

My mother used to give me crap as a teenager about buying video games, as if her generation was much to frugal for "extravagances" like that.  But in raw dollars, the occasional video games I bought probably didn't add up to as much money as just what I spent school backpacks & supplies per semester.

MU for example is now the most expensive per tution hour of the Big 12 colleges and still rising with no end in site (there was an article in the local paper on this topic a few weeks ago).  Plan on averaging around $10,000 per year just for that part.  Now figure in that most students can no longer graduate in four years due to added requirements and such, so it usually is closer to five years, some even six.  So, now you are looking at $50,000+ for just the tution till graduation.  Then, you have to take in account books, gas for travel, housing, food, and more, each increasing the total cost.  Sure, you could say that students can get a job to pay for all of it, but it is a bit difficult getting a good job here, since there is a large supply of undergraduates thinking the same thing, while a lot of resteraunts are closing down.  That means a job with a minimum wage is pretty close to what you get, if you can get one.  The problem there is that leads into a lot less study time for exams, projects, lab reports, all of which subtracts the amount of hours that a student can balance in a week (thus, the lengthing of time needed to graduate).  I think that the total costs here are closer to $100,000-125,000+ for an average undergraduate from start to finish.  Once you get into graduate school, some departments will help fund the tution as part of your stipend, if you become a TA or RA, but only for a period of time..... 

[68charger383]

Things don't appear to be looking better down the road for the rest of this year. The fed will more than liley cut the interest rate again twice which will further weaken the dollar and increase the thing no one is talking about.....Inflation!

[TK73]

 
That's modern govt.

If the plague broke out tomorrow, they'd try to stop it with eminent-domain land grabs and building a new ballpark.

Now THAT was funny!!   

  -  current government worker

[PocketThunder]

Things don't appear to be looking better down the road for the rest of this year. The fed will more than liley cut the interest rate again twice which will further weaken the dollar and increase the thing no one is talking about.....Inflation!

Amen brother. 

[bull]

The government holds some of the responsibility, but so do we, the citizens. The country in general needs a reality check. Most of us have been living far beyond our means and not stashing money away to provide security during times like this. Instead people are over extending themselves buying stuff they don't need. I understand we are free to make choices, but it appears that much of our society has been making very poor choices. I can point out more blue collar guys with a recreational vehicle, boat, collector car, multiple cell phones, home theater, etc. than guys that have real college funds and decent health plans for their kids. But then again, look at our example, the government. They are no better with handling money.

Exactly. People can blame Bush or Clinton or NAFTA (I like to blame it all on the existence of clowns and mimes) but the fact is individuals have put themselves into tight spots they can't get out of by overleveraging themselves financially through debt. Think about how many people you know who not only have a home mortgage and one or two car payments but also a second mortgage, $20k in credit card debt, a cell phone bill, a cable bill, a gym membership, a Netflix membership, child care, private school, college loans, etc. Add that to the rising cost of everyday items like groceries, gas, car repairs, insurance, electricity, yadda yadda yadda. You get my drift. So many people have put themselves so close to the edge of bankruptcy that one little nudge (such as a layoff, blown transmission or medical emergency) sends them over the edge. Your grandma used to tell you to save your money for what you want, be patient and buy it with cash. Have some money set aside for emergencies so when the washing machine goes belly up you can deal with it and still buy food next month. It's common sense but apparently the crazy concept of staying out of debt has gone out the window over the past 20 years or so.

[Mike DC]

   
I agree that the credit card debt situation is absolutely insane.  I don't know where people get off thinking that spending money with a credit card is somehow different from real money in cash.  But it certainly does seem to be the case.


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The social situation is part of it though.  Right now there is no stigma to being in debt, but TOTAL stigma to looking like a bum. 

I have several friends from wealthier circles than I'm from myself.  When I rub elbows with some of their peers, I've noticed that people admitting to being $60,000 or something in student debt is NO real social embarrassment at all.  Yet while I personally have no debt, I can get snubbed or treated better by the same people (especially the women) depending on how well I'm dressed & what I'm talking about. 

One specific time last fall, I got a real kick out of being snubbed by some chick when I was at a little get-together after having come right out of my garage wearing jeans & a raggedy T-shirt.  She didn't realize what I knew about certain people   -- I was worth a lot more than the well-dressed guy she was goign after.  (And I'm not even worth very much.) 

[NHCharger]

As a former builder don't get me started on the housing market. I saw the housing market slowing down THREE YEARS AGO when I built my last spec house. After that I just did additions/renovations. I survived the last recession of 91-94(barely). Many other builders in their late twenties/early thirties kept on building specs, I know some that were sitting on three houses last winter.These guys have never experienced a recession, during the last one they were still living at home with Mommy and Daddy and the only thing they had to worry about was who was going to buy them alcohol on Friday night and were they going to get laid on the weekend.

Another thing that chaps my ass is from the 50's to the 70's the housing market generally appreciated at 4-6% a year (there were a few ups and downs). From 2000 to 2005 housing around here appreciated at 15-35% a year. Spec houses I built in 1998 more than doubled in value in four years. Some of my customers  took out home equity loans and bought stupid stuff, like paying for a trip to Disneyland or buying a recreational vehicle. Things that added no value to their home. People that have no control over their spending habits are the first to cry they need help or claim they were duped and demand help from the government. If they didn't understand the loan agreement they were signing they shouldn't be buying a house, and people that sign up for interest only loans should not be allowed to procreate.

The economy is cyclical in nature. You can't alway have good times, and you have to be prepared and plan ahead to ride out the bad times. If you bought a house before 2002 and haven't taken out a huge equity loan you should be all set. My house has probably dropped 75k in value over the last two years. I don't care since I have no mortgage or any type of loan and plan on living here the rest of my life.

[Mike DC]

 
It's no different than with '71 HemiCudas. 

A situation emerges where everyone is buying it because everyone knows that everyone else will pay more for it later.  But like any true pyramid scheme, there's not enough "everyones" to continue that train of value increase forever.  Sooner or later the music stops.  Eventually somebody gets left holding something they paid a lot more for than they can sell it for now. 

[TK73]

   
I agree that the credit card debt situation is absolutely insane.  I don't know where people get off thinking that spending money with a credit card

Sanctioned at the highest levels of government.



http://www.brillig.com/debt_clock/

[bull]

We just to learn to share more and help each other out. Carpooling, having friends over for dinner, etc. And if your buddy needs a little help playing his guitar, stop and lend a hand...

http://youtube.com/watch?v=i4BYMvVvMg0&feature=related

[mikepmcs]

The government holds some of the responsibility, but so do we, the citizens. The country in general needs a reality check. Most of us have been living far beyond our means and not stashing money away to provide security during times like this. Instead people are over extending themselves buying stuff they don't need. I understand we are free to make choices, but it appears that much of our society has been making very poor choices. I can point out more blue collar guys with a recreational vehicle, boat, collector car, multiple cell phones, home theater, etc. than guys that have real college funds and decent health plans for their kids. But then again, look at our example, the government. They are no better with handling money.

Jim described me perfectly on this quote.  I retired last year(june 07) from the Navy and still have yet to find a job that will pay the bills. His quote above is how I have lived my life and i'm paying for it dearly right now. I've lived off my savings for the entire time(actually lived off the artificial equity in my home as Mike DC so aptly put it in another quote)
My only justification for all this was the Navy was paying the bills, I have no family or kids and I was only responsible for myself.  Well, I decided to retire at 20 instead of doing 2 more years like I had planned(to try to make up for all those impulsive financial decisions) just because I wanted to stay in Maine and they only gave me Jax, FL or Whidbey, Wa  as choices.  Should have left for the 2 years and then came back but what's done is done.  Now I find myself in a lot of catch 22 situations.  The Veteran's Administration has given me a disability rating and I qualify for Voc rehab easily, but they will not give me the school I want due to my disability that they allowed me.  They will take care of you whether you want them to or not.(please don't be offended RD, I still appreciate the VA)  I also applied for a job at that same VA but guess what my disabilities did for me on that one. DOH!
The VA has suggested that I look in to the self employment realm but like everything else, it will take some time.  This state is not known for businesses staying in business too long, so that scares the crap out of me as well. 
I refuse to get a job that pays $10 bucks(or lower in most cases) an hour(i know poor choice when you are struggling).  I have my reasons for this and it has something to do with my lack of desire/inability to be around a lot of people.(loner/recluse)  I can function normally in this atmosphere as I did in the Navy but I choose not to if possible.
So I'm looking for a job that I will not have to jump from when another comes up or another.......
So to make a long story even longer, I'm flat broke and needing some winning lotto numbers quick.
This topic started by Mike is entitled Hard times so that is what I wrote about rather than offering what little I know about the economy.  I've done research on my own and see some valid points made in the above replies.
But to think the next four years is going to get solved by this election would be lunacy on my part, no matter who gets elected.  I was in the military so it's easy to see where I lean but if the other gets elected, it's just going to be a lot of artificial growth, strength, money, BS..... again. Everyone will rally around for a while, stock market will surge, housing will go up, all on a speculation and a hope that it's going to get better soon.  This "recession" or what have you will all happen again cause we are cyclic just like everything else.
The troops will get yanked out like last time and the military downsized yet again and 9/11 will happen all over again eventually cause we didn't finish the job.  7 years have passed since then and I still haven't forgotten. Glance back in recent history and you'll find there is some truth in this statement.

Oh yeah, and to top it off, I wrecked my Charger last week, please check the parts wanted list cause I'll be looking for some stuff.  I'll be buying the fenders from AMD on, you guessed it, PLASTIC but hey I never said I wouldn't continue living my life like an idiot
Anyone want to buy a 55 Chevy?

v/r
Mike

[hutch]

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1656880303867390173

pretty cool movie if you got the time to watch it.  It goes over the creation of the federal "personal" income tax and the federal reserve.

[Shakey]

Mike, I've thought about you a few times over the past few months - wondering where and how you've been.  Sorry to hear that you have fallen on some tough times.

An idea - you mention you were in the Navy - certainly during that time you have become familiar with some of the equipment that was used by you, or the Navy in general (ships, machinery, weapons, tools etc.)  Can you find out who the manufacturers are of this equipment and perhaps approach the company and try to land a position within the company, maybe training your fellow soldiers on how to use/operate/maintain said equipment?

I mention this because with all the activity in Iraq right now, military suppliers are booming!

I hope things turn around for you and the others affected by the economic situation.

[chargerboy69]

Mike,

Are you not getting anything from the Navy as far as pention yet? I was not sure if you had to wait until you turn 55.

My plan is to retire from a full time position in the Guard at 55 at a rank of E-7  or higher. And I know I can comfortably live off those government checks. As long as I can pass my yearly PT test. 

Hope things turn around for you soon.

Tim

[mikepmcs]

Mike,
Thanks for your sentiment.  Yes, I have thought about what you have suggested and if I were to be able to get out from under this house and move back to the Northern Va/DC area, I would be in much better shape to pursue exactly as you have suggested.  I do keep a look out at the local Army Station here for jobs in my area and I still look for openings at the Veteran's Administration.  The nearest Navy related installation is/are Bath and Brunswick(both 50+ miles away).  I know Brunswick wouldn't be a secure job as it is on the chopping block and there isn't much down there anyway.  Bath Iron(navy ship building) is a little further down the line but I know a few people that work there and it seems they are always in some state of flux.
The loom of non steady employment plus the 100+ miles a day scares me.  I live in a bad area for applying what I've learned during my service and trying to continue said experience in my civilian work. It just isn't around here. 
I do, as always, appreciate the suggestion. 

Now, how about another "where am I" game/picture from the master.

Tim
Thanks
Yes, I get a retirement check every month from the Navy because I was on active duty.  It is not enough to pay all the bills though so I must seek out another career.  I retired as a CPO(e-7)
Stay in as long as they will have you!

I'm sure everything will work out.
v/r
Mike