Starting the body work on the 69.....

[SFbullitt]

Gang,

Took off all the olf earl scieb paint from the pass 1/4, got through the lovely joy of bringing the dents back up as close as possible, finished the filler sanding.  I have quite a few high/lows metal to filler around the coke bottle shape in the middle of the panel which I WANT.  You know, the area that non mopar guys point out at shows as being a dent.  I can barely pick up the highs and lows with my hand and it's as close as I'm going to get it.  Which high build primer should I grab?  I was thinking about going back to ppg....wondering if anything else has come out since the last time I shot primer in 2000.  I liked the PPG high build, but found that I had to lay at least 4 coats for minor imperfections and minor dings.  Your sugggestions?  The passenger 1/4 is the roughest part of the car.  I will throw some pics up soon.

The main question here.....HOW MUCH can you get away with using high build.  I'm not a body man by trade, don't have enough time in the field to tell.  For the pros, how often can you feel with your hands a surface that isn't 100% even?  If it doesn't feel 100% true, do you use the high build for a cheater?  Is this a common practice?

[Drop Top]

In my shop after the body work is as straight as I can get it. I always use a blocking primer to finish the car. To get it supper straight. I block it by hand at least 3 times using differant grades of paper each time. Priming between each blocking. After the first blocking anything over the size of a quarter should be filled with a good catilized spot putty. Then block the putty with 80 grit dry paper. When you reprime the car hit all the putty places with the filler primer before primming the whole car. This way these areas wil have a little bit extra primer to help fill the 80 grit scratches.

As far as type of filler primer PPG makes some of the very best materials made. But pricey. I have found that Valspar's 21-N filler primer works just as well and at about 1/2 the price. It works better then anything from DuPont. If you can't get Valspar products, then stick with PPG's blocking primer.

By the way. Yes, it is comen pratice by resoters to block the car after the body work is done. One more thing. Once you get to this point. If you want it supper striaght, do not use any type of air tool to do your blocking. Use only blocks by hand. I use a paint stick (wraped with sand paper) in most of the areas. 180 wet first blocking, 220 wet 2nd blocking then finnish up with 400 wet. Seal then paint. I have never had any prolbem with covering up 400 wet scratches. with the new type of materials the paint companys will not stand behind anything finer then 400 wet. Use alot of water with a bit of dish soap in the bucket. This will help keep the car clean and reduce the chance of fish eye in the final paint. Keep others people's dirty hands off the car also.

[Doc74]

Cheating is a very common practice but it shouldn't be. A high build primer won't hide much.
I've been a bodyman for 15 ish years and I can feel the slightest dent and I can see structures in paint you probably won't and you need experience for that.
Most people don't see what I and other professionals see and that's normal but anyone can see a dent or a swerve in the panel, all you need to notice is lighting on the car.

For smaller imperfectons you could use a spray filler before the primer.
You can literally spray bondo where needed or cover the whole car.
You'll have a decent thickness on the body allowing you to block it straight, primer should be applied in two or three coats depending on the type.
If you use more and force it, it will eventually sag leaving signs in the paintjob.Same with bondo, use to much and it will sag.It "lives on" for about a week, even after forced curing and it will leave a mark if it's too thick.
If you really have no way to straighten the metal then I suggest you use thin coats of bondo, let it cure, sand and repeat.Be sure to have a filler bondo and not a finishing glaze.
Use the spray filler over the bondo and metal, you can spray it like a primer or build it up but don't overdo it.
I just saw a show with Barry White (not the singer) who fixed a RR and the amount of bondo they used was insane.
I'd like to see that car now.

There's many ways to remove dents from the outside of the panel, best tip I can give you is try to get that metal straight as best as you can, any way you can. Superglue, a chesspiece and a piece of string or chain to pull do wonders on a dent, nobody said you needed the best tools 

For high build or high solid primers use any of the big names and you're fine. PPG, Dupont, Sikkens, Glasurit, they're all good quality primers, one will be a bit tougher to sand but overall they are basically the same.
If you liked the PPG primer then by all means reuse that or it's successor which is always an improvement on the previous one. Well most anyway...

If you're using both spray filler and primer, you'll ideally need two sets of gun needles and tips since the spray filler needs a bigger opening.

Post some pictures if you can, maybe I can be of more help.

[SFbullitt]

Thanks Doc, I noticed the thread on the 69 that you performed surgery on.  Amazing work and your advice is much appreciated.  One problem that I ran into on my 1/4 is the following. 

It had a dent in the rear, I brought it back with my uni-welder, lightly shaped it back with the dolly, filled that one area, sanded it, done.  Went to the middle of the 1/4, found a huge line as if someone laid a pipe on the upper area in the middle and hit it with a hammer.  Brought that back, filled....sanded....done.....then moved to the front right behind the door.  Found a few dents, bought them back, filled, sanded done.  Then I went over the entire 1/4 with my longboy and ran into problems.  I may have sanded off too much.  I don't like thick filler and try to get as close as possible so you can almost see through it. 

My hand is having issues.  I will run my palm from metal to filler and I can't tell in my hand if it's a high or low.  I'm feeling the smooth slip on the metal then slows on the filler.  Any tricks here?  This is where I'm wondering about the high build.  I was looking on line at the evercoat uro-fill.  Thinking of giving that a shot.

[NorwayCharger]

Thanks Doc, I noticed the thread on the 69 that you performed surgery on.  Amazing work and your advice is much appreciated.  One problem that I ran into on my 1/4 is the following. 

It had a dent in the rear, I brought it back with my uni-welder, lightly shaped it back with the dolly, filled that one area, sanded it, done.  Went to the middle of the 1/4, found a huge line as if someone laid a pipe on the upper area in the middle and hit it with a hammer.  Brought that back, filled....sanded....done.....then moved to the front right behind the door.  Found a few dents, bought them back, filled, sanded done.  Then I went over the entire 1/4 with my longboy and ran into problems.  I may have sanded off too much.  I don't like thick filler and try to get as close as possible so you can almost see through it. 

My hand is having issues.  I will run my palm from metal to filler and I can't tell in my hand if it's a high or low.  I'm feeling the smooth slip on the metal then slows on the filler.  Any tricks here?  This is where I'm wondering about the high build.  I was looking on line at the evercoat uro-fill.  Thinking of giving that a shot.

I use a fine soft rag.( or even a layex glove works )
The trick is to use something between your hand and the body, try it 

[Doc74]

Thanks Doc, I noticed the thread on the 69 that you performed surgery on.  Amazing work and your advice is much appreciated.  One problem that I ran into on my 1/4 is the following. 

It had a dent in the rear, I brought it back with my uni-welder, lightly shaped it back with the dolly, filled that one area, sanded it, done.  Went to the middle of the 1/4, found a huge line as if someone laid a pipe on the upper area in the middle and hit it with a hammer.  Brought that back, filled....sanded....done.....then moved to the front right behind the door.  Found a few dents, bought them back, filled, sanded done.  Then I went over the entire 1/4 with my longboy and ran into problems.  I may have sanded off too much.  I don't like thick filler and try to get as close as possible so you can almost see through it. 

My hand is having issues.  I will run my palm from metal to filler and I can't tell in my hand if it's a high or low.  I'm feeling the smooth slip on the metal then slows on the filler.  Any tricks here?  This is where I'm wondering about the high build.  I was looking on line at the evercoat uro-fill.  Thinking of giving that a shot.

If you have trouble with highs and lows because of sanding off too much, try covering the entire area with one skimcoat, don't try to have a small spot here and a small spot 2 inches further. Make it one big but thin spot.This way you will be able to longblock the area and you'll get much better results.
Also never ever push down on a block, doesn't matter what you're sanding, the paper will do the work for you, you just need to make the movement.
When you push down even gently you'll notice that the panel flexes, if you sand with so much pressure you will create a form that doesn't belong.
Use a thin spray guide, like a flat black aerosol and cross sand the patch, stay on the filler with a grit 80 until it's 90-95 done. Switch to 150 grit and continue, this time you sand further so the edges get feathered. Go once over with grit 220 ish to finish the patch for now.

Also try to avoid bondo on paint, even sanded.
If you need to bondo a painted panel make sure to remove everything on the damaged area and rotate sand with grit 80 or 150 to really feather out the paint layers. Apply bondo and scrape it over the feathered edges. The idea is that around the edges the bondo gets very thin, almost transparent, making it a smooth transition to the rest of the panel. If you can remove dents without the need of bondo then the feathering stays the same, you just go to primer from there.

Like NorwayCharger said use a cloth or thin glove to feel everything. Also wash your hands regularly because the filler will close up your pores making it hard to feel the differences on the panel.

If you're right handed then use your left to feel, as a test try not to look at the panel, look at passing women or something but just glide your hand over in all directions without looking (the panel, not the women), you'll know exactly where it needs more work that way.

Keep your hand relaxed and fingers together and go long    If the spot is 5 inches across then feel over 20. The spot itself may be smooth but that doesn't mean it fits in with the rest.

Good luck

[Charger-Bodie]

if you want more build than primer surfacer try poly surfacer it is a great product with virtually no shrinkage ,on resto work we always get the body work at straght and smooth as posible just like other have said in the post but we spray poly surfacer down for the first priming and block that out , it fills about 2x as much as primer ,doesnt shrink and usually means you dont have to block it out as many times

[Doc74]

if you want more build than primer surfacer try poly surfacer it is a great product with virtually no shrinkage ,on resto work we always get the body work at straght and smooth as posible just like other have said in the post but we spray poly surfacer down for the first priming and block that out , it fills about 2x as much as primer ,doesnt shrink and usually means you dont have to block it out as many times

Right that's the spray filler I meant. It makes the job a lot easier, in resto work many use the same technique and if you're body prep is good it's a very good way to go. Blocks great, is bonehard and ready for primer which is not built for very thick coats.

[SFbullitt]

Doc, thank you so much for the post.  One thing that you mentioned that I was guilty of was pushing on the block.  You're right, I was doing it.

I did the body work on my 68 5 years ago and I guess I lost my touch.  I need to keep practicing to get it back.  In the pic, you will see primer on one side.....this is finished.  The lower 1/4 was smashed in and I got that straight as a pin.  all lines are back etc....then I got to the rear by the side marker light and lost it!  I got mad, smeared my filler over the whole rear 1/4 so it wouldn't rust and called it quits.  I know that if I can't get something to work correctly, I take a break from it for a while and come to it.  That's what I'm doing now.  I took off the deck lid and fixed two minor dings in the meantime, one on the body line near the key hole which came out nice and the other is dead center.  At least the decklid is done.  When you see the pics, you will get a laugh.  I will send you some more once I grind that off and start over.  Below that is my 68.  I must have spent 20 hrs. blocking that thing.  It's a mirror.

[Doc74]

I'm not sure why but I get a bit dizzy looking at that last pic 
The bodyline is clearly visible, it sure looks straight.

Metalwork can be a bit tricky, it's like everything else, you have to have the theory down, know how it works, reacts and ages and then put that to practice.
That's where the fun begins. If you don't have the theory and the knowledge and you have to not just deal with metal but treated metal, painted, filled, repaired then there's no easy way to turn it into practice. It's like learning the guitar or a sax or whatever . I could play a tune or two but I only got good with a teacher. Get yourself a good book or dvd on metalwork, even if you already have some knowledge of it, there's always more to learn.
In fact I'm going to look out for one as well, I especially need books in English on bodywork so I can learn the technical terms, a few are still a bit hazy...

Open question to all, any recommendations on sheetmetal books or dvd's ?

Sheetmetal is an art but so is using bondo. Using bondo as it's meant to be is easy, it's always skim coats. Real filling and cheating is hard.
I've worked in all sorts of body shops to get a feel for it all, from shady, small shops with half a toolbox to top of the line resto shops were bondo was forbidden.

I've had to recreate entire curves and waves in panels and I got very good at it, the trouble is it's not right, it's too thick and it will eventually either sag or crack or loose it's adhesion to the metal or old paint.

Do whatever you want to do, it's your car and your time but if you want to do more of this then I know you will benefit from learning the real basics.
It wasn't easy to get the grin of my face years ago when I hammered my first sphere from a sheet of metal. 

Whichever road you choose I'll do my best to advice you on techniques and products to get the best results and hold those.
There's plenty guys on this board who have some serious knowledge, we may not know everything individually but between us all we're not a bad source of info, especially including the mechanics, I'm always impressed reading those posts. Just give us the most info you got and lots of pics 

[SFbullitt]

Thanks....I have a friend who owns a body shop, he's too busy to help me though.  For the past 3-4 years I hang out there at nights once and a while and watch him do his magic.  One more question speaking of his shop.  I watched him repair/save my sisters 1/4 panel on her Acura.  The whole thing was bashed in and she didn't want him to cut the 1/4 out and didn't want to run the risk of having interior removed so he agreed to try to fix it.  I swear he's one of the best out there.  He used a nail uni welder and brought the metal back out, used a series of dolly's and used a minor skim of filler, sanded, then he came back with a real wet coat of filler.  I forgot to ask him what is was.  It's almost as if he added thinner to the filler to make it eaier to spread.  This 1/4 has a lot of curves, lines and dips.  I'm still amazed when I wash the car how straight it is.  He learned the trade while locked up 20 years ago.  I know you guys like pics....I will keep posting them up.  I'm going to give the 1/4 another shot using minimal pressure on my long boy.  I don't want the filler too thick....that's why I'm having issues.  Tring to get it down less than 1/8 of an inch.  On my 68, there is no die back, ripples or anything on it.  I wish the old board was saved....I had so many picks of it on there it was gross.

I had a quarter size hit on the cowl as seen below.  I was able to bring it back out by using a torch.  Got it red hot, shrinked it, came back up.  Only need a little bit of filler here.  You can almost see throught it.  I wish these type of repairs are on the rest of the car....heheheh   wishful thinking.

[Todd Wilson]

There's many ways to remove dents from the outside of the panel, best tip I can give you is try to get that metal straight as best as you can, any way you can. Superglue, a chesspiece and a piece of string or chain to pull do wonders on a dent, nobody said you needed the best tools 

Add old dodge trucks to that list!   

[BigBlockSam]

yell man, pull it, pull it hard. thats great man . do what ever you can do to bring it back . i work in my yard ., and ya gotta do what ya gotta to get it right . 

[Doc74]

I remember we tied a chain around a thick concrete pillar in the shop where I started out and they drove the cars ahead pulling out the bigger dents. sometimes not very gently either.

I was watching these guys with my jaw dropped to the floor, luckily I realised soon that there were actually safe tools and techniques for work like this without the risk of bringing the entire building down, but they did teach me a thing or two about alternative tools and methods.
Anyone ever remove dents with a baseball ? 

[dads_69]

Morning Doc. Yes, back in high school we used a lot of different items for repairing dents,a baseball was won of them, strange but true. We fixed a camaro that a kid had in class on the front fender once. I never forgot that trick. Thats were a sand bag came into play also.
Mark

[Doc74]

Morning Doc. Yes, back in high school we used a lot of different items for repairing dents,a baseball was won of them, strange but true. We fixed a camaro that a kid had in class on the front fender once. I never forgot that trick. Thats were a sand bag came into play also.
Mark

Yep it's amazing what one can do with every day materials but hey if it gets the job done, it's ok in my book.
How's the daytona clone Mark? Still at it or have you got another project now ?