Glotzbach drove a superbee?

[THE CHARGER PUNK]

i was searching up old charlie on yahoo the other day and saw info that he drove the #38 Super Bee, did nascar even have coronet/superbees in it? pics anyone or other info?

[Ghoste]

I've seen a few Coronets in the old footage.  Remember, that is also the time of independents (or twilight of such), so there was a lot more variety than now.  Especially on the short tracks and dirt tracks, of which NASCAR ran a lot more than the big circles they prefer today.

[Aero426]

i was searching up old charlie on yahoo the other day and saw info that he drove the #38 Super Bee, did nascar even have coronet/superbees in it? pics anyone or other info?

GLotzbach is best remembered for the #6 500, the #99 Daytona, but he drove a ton of different cars through the years.  He did a lot of one-off drives. 

Any B body was legal for NASCAR, USAC or ARCA.  Goldsmith ran a Super Bee in '68.   There were several Coronets in USAC stocks from 68-72.

[BigBlackDodge]

Here's a few...



BBD

[daytonalo]

Did you know that C. GLOTZBACH went 243 mph while testing the new daytona racecar at the proving grounds !!!!! I don't think that  Whiff bipple or that jock itch or crueex  could or many current day drivers  could drive a relic that fast like the old timers

[Aero426]

Did you know that C. GLOTZBACH went 243 mph while testing the new daytona racecar at the proving grounds !!!!! I don't think that  Whiff bipple or that jock itch or crueex  could or many current day drivers  could drive a relic that fast like the old timers

More than one of the old timers will tell you the wing car was the best handling car they ever drove.  That would include Glotzbach.  So much for "relics".

I'm skeptical of the 243 claim.  I once saw Larry Rathgeb answer a question regarding gear ratio that Isaac ran at the Salt Flats.    Based on parameters, he got out a pad of paper and came up with a 2.76 rear gear.

OK, so I ran the numbers on an online calculator based on the following:
2.76 rear gear
27" diameter tire   8.00 x 15 NASCAR tire
217 mph
1.0 trans gear, no OD.

Comes out to 7457 rpm.   I say it goes Kablooey.    I don't see them running a ratio taller than 2.76 in testing, when they wouldn't run it on track somewhere.

Backing out the top speed to 201, for Talladega, it comes back to 6904 rpm.   I can believe that.

In 1986, Tim Richmond did run thru the traps at 240 at huge oval at the Transportation Research Center in Ohio.  They ran against Al Holbert's Porsche 962.   Holbert's car was aero limited to 227 because of the ground effect equipment.  But Richmond's car was barely able to do it.  No idea what they did to the car mechanically. 

[daytonalo]

have you checked this site out www.allpar.com, that is where I read it

[Aero426]

I've heard the claim before.    I just don't think it makes sense.    It reeks of, "The older I get, the faster I was..."

[daytonalo]

To any wing lover who has not checked out this site , it is a must read ! Maaama I's like to reed !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[THE CHARGER PUNK]

glotzbach drove that red and black #6 c500? i thought that was buddy bakers car?-MATT

[Aero426]

glotzbach drove that red and black #6 c500? i thought that was buddy bakers car?-MATT

Glotzbach drove the Cotton Owens 500 in 1968 and early 1969.    He won at Charlotte in that car in '68.  He almost won Daytona in '69.   He up and quit after Daytona '69 because he was upset with NASCAR and the way they treated drivers.  "They treat us like dogs" he said.   That's when Baker took over the Owens #6.

While he was on hiatus, Glotzbach drove Smokey Yunick's Talladega at Atlanta in April of '69.   He looked at running Indy, and took his rookie test, but did not try to qualify for the Indy 500.    When Paul Goldsmith decided to retire out of the Nichels #99 Charger in mid season of '69, Glotzbach got that ride. 

For the record, as far as modern drivers go, Charlie likes Ryan Newman and Tony Stewart, but is not a fan of Jeff Gordon or Jimmie Johnson. 

[69_500]

Just out of curiousity but why do you not by the 7,500 RPM on a HEMI Doug? I would have figured that in the race HEMI's back in that era they would have been running up to around 7,500 RPM. I know it wasn't too long ago they weren't running over 8,500 RPM in NASCAR, now it seems everyone is running around 9,500+.

I don't doubt it, but was just curious. I would like to see a modern engine shop build a HEMI up, slap in a set of 2.76 gears, a 4 speed, and then run a Daytona at the Salt Flats. What do you think they could do? 250+?

[THE CHARGER PUNK]

4-spd? hell throw in a 6-spd and wind right up 2 300

[hemigeno]

Just out of curiousity but why do you not by the 7,500 RPM on a HEMI Doug? I would have figured that in the race HEMI's back in that era they would have been running up to around 7,500 RPM. I know it wasn't too long ago they weren't running over 8,500 RPM in NASCAR, now it seems everyone is running around 9,500+.

Back then, the exotic lightweight metals weren't around, so they were pretty much using beefed up (and sometimes just stock) parts.  They usually held up well, but they had a lot of mass.  Sound engineering practice of the day was often to make parts that were susceptible to failure larger and heavier, to withstand the loads they carried.

The biggest reason for RPM limitation was related to the long stroke that big blocks have.  That creates some fairly high piston speeds (inside the cylinder bores) at race RPM's anyway, and the engines just wouldn't hold together.  When you couple high piston speeds with high con rod and piston weights, it is a recipie for disaster.  The race teams were pushing the envelope all they could at the time.  The newer metals available today would probably allow a NASCAR engine builder to go well past what the RPM threshhold was back in the "glory days", but it still won't be able to wind as tight as today's small block race engines.

Just on Monday, Rich Bolzenius relayed a Cotton Owens story to me (as told on the Speed Channel) that Rich also confirmed with Charlie Glotzbach.  It seems that when Cotton had a motor that he wanted to test, they would set the motor up on the engine dyno, fire it up, crank the RPM's up to about 7k, and then go to lunch.  If the motor was still running when they got back, "they had a good one..."

I would like to see a modern engine shop build a HEMI up, slap in a set of 2.76 gears, a 4 speed, and then run a Daytona at the Salt Flats. What do you think they could do? 250+?

I don't think the cars could safely do much over 250.  I just looked up the record holders at the Bonneville Nationals Incorporated website.  Lee Sicillio's Charger Daytona is #2 on the list (Category "E" Classic, Unblown/Fuel/Altered) at 248.125mph.  Something tells me that it'd be hard to go much faster than that, if it's #2 on the all-time record holder's list.  Oh, and that run was logged in August of '06, so they probably used every available lightweight part to hit max speed.

[Ghoste]

So what's your opinion of the 243 claim?

[hemigeno]

So what's your opinion of the 243 claim?

According to Charlie Glotzbach, it happened.  I have no reason to doubt him, and I heard him say it personally.  There is a transcript of the interview that he made that very statement here:

Charlie Gloztbach Interview on wwnboa.com

I don't know the rear end ratio, tire size, transmission final drive ratio, etc. that they were running, but I suspect that they wrung all they could out of the engine and chassis.

Here's a quote that Charlie gave us when asked about modern vs. old technology:

Q: What if you could get that thing back out there, a 426 Hemi Daytona like that, now with the newer technology, tires and all that other stuff, no restrictor plate, what do you think you guys could get out of that?
A: Probably 250 mph at least.

And another quote about engine RPM's:

Q: We talked to you earlier about the gauges, when you're running 180 mph, how fast is that engine cranking then in high gear?
A: Well, we usually turn them around 7200 rpm.

Q: And you had more that you could use if you needed it?
A: Well, no, 72 (hundred); that was enough. Sometimes now, at Charlotte, I won that race in Cotton's car and then we could run two 4 bbls. And it had two 4 bbls on it. Then right after that, the next year they made it so you could run one 4 bbl. It was turning 7500 and Cotton said, "We'd better change that gear. It's going to blow up."  And I said, "Nah, it won't blow up. If it's going to blow up at 75 [7500 rpm], it's going to blow up at 72. If it's good, it ain't going to blow up"  So we went out and won the race with it and turned 7500. So they kind of, after that, didn't worry about it too much.

Some interesting things in that interview, but I still think that there are limitations to what the Daytona body's aerodynamics will allow - even as good as it is.

[hemigeno]

Here's a picture of Lee Sicillio's Daytona at Bonneville (I kinda like the burning dollar bill on the quarterpanel - probably an appropriate graphic for an effort like that!):

[69_500]

See I would have figured it would have toped out over 250, but I guess not.

Hey Gene, also the Charlie Glotzbac quote is available on film, or should I say DVD. Through none other than D.E.L. Productions.

[hemigeno]

Hey Gene, also the Charlie Glotzbac quote is available on film, or should I say DVD. Through none other than D.E.L. Productions.

Forgot about the plug for DEL Productions 

You know I already purchased that from you, but others might want to do so as well.  Your Dad did the camerawork, and was instrumental in keeping the interview with Charlie going.  Really turned out well IMHO.

[69_500]

I'm still working on the interview with Neil, it appears to be coming out just as well as the charlie interview.

Hey I need a few shameless plugs here and there.

[Ghoste]

Plug away.  Feel free to pm me a list of whats available if you want.

[nascarxx29]

Lees Record setting daytona clone is a cool car .And a living testament to how Janaks fiberglass wing car parts hold up .In severe conditions.That a street clone car wouldnt be exposed to

[69_500]

The more I look at the photo you posted of Lee's Daytona. The more impressed I am. The photographer was good. The angle, and the backdrop are incredible.