Wilwood suck!! Lessons learned the hard way!

[mikes68charger]

OK I'm converted my 68 charger from an auto to a 4 speed.  I was having a hard time finding all the info on the z bracket and were to weld the brackets. So I called wilwood to make an hydraulic set up. I was useding a 5/8 master but now use a 3/4 masterclyinder. I also started off with a CNC push style slave cylinder. I bought the street strip Hays 3 finger clutch. I couldn't get the clutch to release during my shifts and the clutch petal was as hard as a break petal.  Called wilwood again told them of my clutch and shifting problems, they told me to upgrade to a wilwood pull type slave cylinder and go from a 3 to 4 AN line to get more throw.

All this and no improvement. I call Hays and talk to there clutch man. He tells me that my clutch is a 3000lbs unit and that it is over powering the hydraulic system!!!! That I will have to down grade to a step above a factory clutch to keep the hydraulic system. He said that a Ford truck uses a 1900lbs clutch and that I need to get down to these numbers. SO I order a Hays pressure plate with 2100lbs of pressure.

I'm now waiting on the parts to show up to see if this makes a difference. I cant believe that a Z bar can handle more pressue than a hydraulic. Whats up? I  cant believe wilwood didn't tell me of this before I spent all this money and time. 

[694spdRT]

Keisler told me the same thing when I called about a hydraulic setup for my Challenger. They told me a diaphram clutch would be needed so I went with the Z bar setup.

I am using a Hayes street/strip unit in the Charger and have had no problems with it although I am using a Z bar setup in that also.

[phat69charger]

Here's a link that may help you out: http://www.classicchevy5speed.com/files/Clutch_Linkage_Installation_Tips.pdf I also remember seeing a chart of brake pedal ratios and master cylinders of different sizes chart and the amount of pressure you get from using different size Masters and pedal ratios, when I find it I'll post it for you it should help you out more than the link above.

[phat69charger]

I kept the factory fork in my clutch setup I used a universal Wilwood Puller slave cylinder 3/4" going up to I believe a 11/16 clutch master cylinder through a SS braided line which is the standard size hose for brakes I'm not sure of the AN size, my pressure plate is a 2700 Lbs Hayes, my setup moves the clutch but I haven't tested it yet with the car moving, the pedal pressure is lighter than a Zbar and smooth, but it is not easy like a newer little car, here's another link for you, you need to figure out the pedal ratio you have, because it changes everything about your setup: http://www.hotrodheaven.com/tech/brakes/brakes6.htm

Here's a link to a Post by Coke that I posted info in http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,11478.0.html

[phat69charger]

Page 54 of the current Art Morrison Catalog (it's a PDF file) has that chart of pedal ratio and master cylinder bores and the pressure you get with different combinations: http://www.artmorrison.com/2006cat/2006catalog.pdf?Download+Catalog=Download+Catalog

[mikes68charger]

Well thanks for the replies!  I see that you are using the Chevy mastercylinder not a wilwood. I have used a 5/8 and now a 3/4 wilwood masterclyinder, and tried to use the same Chevy masterclinder but the angle was all jacked up for me. I had to use a nut to make the angle more correct. Then the cheap rod bent on me, so I had to weld a steal bolt to stiffen up the factory shaft. I wanted to use the Chevy masterclyinder so to get the rod closer to the pivot point to get that mechanical leverage. I hope that your set up works for you with all the work you have done.

But according to the pressure chart on the site you sent me, going to a bigger masterclinder will do nothing more than add volume but decrees pressure. Its the pressure that gives that slave its power not the volume. Thats why wilwood told me to go from a 3 AN to a 4 AN line, keep the pressure up and add the extra volume of the bigger hose.

My slave set up pushed the clutch fork, to a point with no problems but once on the road it just couldn't go that last little bit.  I think I messured 1 inch or so of fork movement.

I will let you know what happens when my new pressure plate with the lower pressures gets installed. I hope that it works, I have spent so much time and money trying to save some time and money!!

I love the plate that you made, I'm going to try to copy it the best I can. If you could some measurement and material would be great!!! I was just using some 3/16 sheet metal with a hole for the masterclyinder and the bolts to hold it.

The only problem with using the wilwood masters clyinders is they mount strait throw the fire wall and connets about 5 inches from the pivot point.

[phat69charger]

Hey, Mike

I don't know all the details of about the master cylinder being used because my friend sourced all the parts for my setup he's the mastermind behind a lot of the custom mod's in my charger, you should have stayed with the smaller AN line because it's easier to pressurerize a smaller diameter hose than a larger one, the plate inside the firewall is 1/8" aluminum plate and the spacer on the outside in the engine bay is a 1/2" plastic piece, the rod inside the car is connected to the stop tab on the clutch pedal and has bronze bushings between the rod and the bolt through the tab, you can see the close up shot of the mounting point.

Like I said my setup hasn't been tested with the car moving, and my angle between the pedal and master cylinder is close to a straight shot, it maybe 10 degrees of angle between them, when the pedel is pushed down.

[phat69charger]

This company has the Billet Clutch Master Cylinders for Fords, the angle is not the same as the Mcleod Billet Clutch Master Cylinder, but you could make an angled base out of some plastic and get close to the angle you need for the pedel  to operate the rod on it. It's 3/4 down the page and it's $250.

http://www.autoworks.cc/65-70%20ford_hydraulic_clutch_kits.htm

[mikes68charger]

Igiving this close to giveing up on this clutch!! I installed the new lighter pressure 2100lbs Hays plate with only a 25% iimprovement It still grinds when you shift because my leg isn't strong enof to push the clutch down. I called Hays back and he told me this is the best clucth for my application I called wilwood back and there top tec guy told me II'm using the best set up 3/4 master with a pull type slave.

He claim it my petal / leverage ratio is all jacked up. My master is currently 6 in down with a 12 in petal = 2:1 ratio  He said I have to move it up to 2in from the pivot point (like your web sit said)

I drove my charger to its first show!!! An there was a comero with the same 2100lbs clutch with the z bar set up and it was like presses in clutch in my 98 ford countor.  My option is to make a wedge and angel the master clyinder up to the same pivot as the factor clutch, or just give up and buy all the z bar parts and try to figure out how to install it.

I'm lost!!!

[Rolling_Thunder]

My option is to make a wedge and angel the master clyinder up to the same pivot as the factor clutch

do you mean place the master in the location of the factory pushrod ?    Thats what I did and it works great...     

[mikes68charger]

Thats great! Can you give me a close up pic of the adpter you made? How dose it work? Do you perfer the Hyd over the factory set up? HOW Hard is it to press the peatal?

[phat69charger]

For all you guys who plan on making your own setup you need to realize that you have to look at everyones example and work and figure out what you know you CAN do and are capable of doing or fabricating up, I was going to buy a Mcleod Billet master cylinder but my friend is a pretty good fabricator and what you see  in my charger is his doing, all of the parts you see in my setup cost less than the Mcleod Billet Master Cylinder, Rolling Thundrer I like your setup, I seen a setup about a year ago in a GM that had the master cylinder fabricated inside between the pedals and firewall it's on this page: http://members.cox.net/13secss/bbhp_tilton.html ,you should start making and selling the bracket that you fabricated, I would start doing the same but my system is not tested yet.

[phat69charger]

Mikes68 If your using the same willwood puller that I have in my setup, and I think Rolling Thunder has the same one also, I can tell you that you have to put a little preload on the fork not so much that the throwout bearing is touching the fingers of the pressure plate, I have about a piece of paper thickness gap between the throwout bearing and the fingers of the pressure plate, and the puller cylinder I have moves my fork pretty far, you know the fork has a ratio to it to but I don't know it, check your gap between your pressure plate fingers and the throwout bearing when the system is at rest, I'll measure how far my fork actually moves tommorrow and then you can compare what I get to what you have, And Rolling Thunder if you know how far your's moves you can chime in too.

[mikes68charger]

Thats it I quit!!!!  Thankyou for all you advice. I did everything + sum. I built a angle block of alummun at the proper angle to get my master clyinger to mount to the petals at the same point as you. Before it took all my power to just mover it 2ins now it moves great. Its still a little hard but I would be happy with it if it worked!!     

It shifts better now but still doesn't down shift, and just kisses a little bit during hard shifts. I quit this set up I'm going to sell everthing on ebay to make some money for a z bar set up. I actually got a used z bar at a mopar show here in Houston this weekend for $15!!!  

I have destroyed my fire wall with notable holes, had a hard time stopping it from leaking and all the nice new red paint and bed liner are gone off my frame. I got brake fluid on my lower control arms. I bought 3 masters clyinders and 2 slave clylinders pulse hoses if any one wants any!

i WILL KEEP IT ON INTILL THIS WEEKEND, I'm going to try to adjust the nut on the slave, but deep down I don't think it is going to work.

Thank you  I did learn a lot from this, and you posting, I guess thats all that mater's.

[phat69charger]

Hey, Mikes68charger

I measured my stroke at the fork I get about 1" , you shouldn't sell anything until you get the Z-Bar first and see if you still have the same problem, have you used the trans you have in anything else before your Charger ?, and if you brought it from someone did you see it work correctly in that vehicle it was in ? if the answer is no for the last two questions you better make sure it's not the Trans.

[mikes68charger]

OK maybe I spoke a little to soon! I assumed that the shop that built my pull cylinder bracket adjusted the pull clyindr correctly. I decided to tighten up the bolt and it was way lose. After tighten up the adjustment bolt  the car shifted better, alot better It was the first time It actually felt like a clutch is supposed to be.  I actual had some free play - I could let the clutch up about an 1in before the clutch connected.

But the bracket he built is two low and the alignment of the pull clyinder is off. The c shape of the fork is rubbing hard against the shat of the pull clyinder.  He also drilled his own hole closer to the trans to keep it close and give me more movement of the fork, Is this a good Ideal? I'm taking the car back tomorrow to make him line the clyinder up. 

And yes this is the first car I have ever used this trans in. And I pray its not the trans I paid about $700 or so to have it rebuilt.  I pulled the trans out of an old dodge van to be rebuilt.

[mikes68charger]

I quit I have tried everything and it doesn't work!!!!!!!!  It shifts  better but still grinds when power shifting. Its fine when normal shifting but you cant down shift or power shift. I tighten the adjuster nut on the salve somemore and it didn't do any better and started to slip when I floored it.   


Could this be the trans?

If the trans is bad I'm selling everything, both trans and all the hydraulic parts. I will buy a t45 and have my bellhouseing modified.

[phat69charger]

If

I quit I have tried everything and it doesn't work!!!!!!!! It shifts better but still grinds when power shifting. Its fine when normal shifting but you cant down shift or power shift. I tighten the adjuster nut on the salve somemore and it didn't do any better and started to slip when I floored it.


Could this be the trans?

If the trans is bad I'm selling everything, both trans and all the hydraulic parts. I will buy a t45 and have my bellhouseing modified.

If you continue to tighten the slave cylinder it will press the pressure plate fingers in more which is the same as depressing the clutch pedal partially and that would account for the slippage you have when you floor it, I find hard to believe that you have a whole system that doesn't operate correctly yet you have the same parts that other people are using, I have a AN 3 SS line other than that we have had the same parts, but like I said I have yet to test my setup So I only have a non moving example to go by, If I have the same problem you do I will change out the Master Cylinder to one of those billet ones.

[mikes68charger]

I hope it works out for you. I don't understand eather, thats why I went with this set up. I don't understand the z bar set up and the parts are hard to find. I'm trying to go with a hi tec modern set up in my car, thats why I install my hydrobost, 4 wheel disk, stage 2 firm feel box etc...

I'm going to buy the z bar parts and give it a try. Since I need these parts for the kelser 5 speed set up work.

I have a second trans in the the back, but it is use and very worn. my friend told me to try the z bar set up, if that don't work try the other trans. But at this point If the Z bar don't work I quit on this set up!!! I'm spending way to much money when the the kesler is what I really want