priming oil pump

[Sendero]

Just primed my oil pump for my new rebuild. I do not recall this happening so I though I double check with the forum. I have a HP pump, during the priming it seemed to get a real drag on it,...to much so. Basically if I wait a few minutes and turn the pump shaft by hand I can get an easy turn then it firms up to where I can't turn it by hand. Wait a few minutes and I can again get an easy turn then it firms up.

Using a drill, the pump puts a real drag on the drill. Is this a normal behavior for a HP pump, I just don't recall this. IS the new pump bad?

[KMPX2]

What weight oil are you useing?

[Chryco Psycho]

the oil pump will drag down a drill

[Ghoste]

I'd be more alarmed if it didn't drag the drill down.

[Sendero]

Thanks...a bit of a relief.

[Steve P.]

It'll take out an old or weak drill..... 

Just think about how much HP you lose with a high pressure or high volume pump...

[Ghoste]

Not nearly as much as you lose to a low volume weak pump when a bearing spins.  

[Runner]

dont forget to turn the motor over slowly while priming 2 full crank revolutions so you can get oil to the heads, rockers.

[Rocky]

When I primed my magnum crate motor, the drill bogged down, and started smoking.  On the up side the oil pressure was up to 80psi

[cudaken]

 Yep, a HP oil pump eats HP. If you where using a crodless drill that will all so cause that. Ruel of thumb is 10 PSI per 1000 RPM's.

If high out put or pressuer did you get a harden oil pump drive? Real good idea.                             

                Cuda Ken

[Steve P.]

Not nearly as much as you lose to a low volume weak pump when a bearing spins.  

If the rebuild is done right you don't need extra oiling.. Now if you are building a MONSTER with huge HP and it will allllways be beat on you may need higher volume..

Keep in mind that most engines come from the factory with a standard pump and these engines go well over 100,000 miles without oiling trouble..

[Ghoste]

Agreed.   My point was that I was much less concerned with what a high volume pump would cost me in horsepower than what a spun bearing would cost me in dollars.   If you are rebuilding it and you plan to beat on it at all, then why not have a better oiling system than oem?   It doesn't have to be a NASCAR ready dry sump but an upgrade is inexpensive and can save a lot in the long run.

[firefighter3931]

  My point was that I was much less concerned with what a high volume pump would cost me in horsepower than I what a spun bearing would cost me in dollars.   If you are rebuilding it and you plan to beat on it at all, then why not have a better oiling system than oem?   It doesn't have to be a NASCAR ready dry sump but an upgrade is inexpensive and can save a lot in the long run.

Trying to make a few xtra hp at the oiling systems expense is foolish inmo. Maybe if you were racing a stocker where every last ounce of hp needs to be wrung out of the combo, i could see it. For a street driven combo you want lots of oil pressure, particularly at idle speed. The faster rate cams require good oil pressure to survive on the street...especially with the increased spring pressures required to run those grinds. In the past couple of years there have been many cam failures....some of which is oil related, inmo.

I've seen the dyno #'s comparing lighter weight oil to race 20/50 lube....and it's not that much....maybe 10hp on a 600hp combo. I'll take the thick stuff and high oil pressure any day of the week, thank you.  

Ron

[Ghoste]

  There, what he said.

[phat69charger]

When I primed my engine I used an impact gun with a socket that fit the priming shaft! I have a high volume pump it's about 75psi at idle, 100psi if you rev it up, I run 20/50 Mobil 1.

[Steve P.]

I agree that the extra oiling is a major plus. What I was getting at was first that yes, the high pressure/volume pumps are harder to turn.  (burn out a weak drill)....

Next was that many people go hog wild when it sometimes doesn't need it..  Like putting an 850 Speed Demon on a Pinto 4 banger..

I have never used a standard pump on any rebuild. Then again, I have never just put anything back to stock!!

On the cam wipes, there are many reasons for them. Most of the big cam makers want you to break in todays large cams with very light valve springs..  Another step!!

I really didn't mean to say that there isn't good reason to use a better than factory pump.. I guess I should have explained better...

[firefighter3931]

I agree that the extra oiling is a major plus. What I was getting at was first that yes, the high pressure/volume pumps are harder to turn.   (burn out a weak drill)....

Next was that many people go hog wild when it sometimes doesn't need it..   Like putting an 850 Speed Demon on a Pinto 4 banger..

I have never used a standard pump on any rebuild. Then again, I have never just put anything back to stock!!

On the cam wipes, there are many reasons for them. Most of the big cam makers want you to break in todays large cams with very light valve springs..   Another step!!

I really didn't mean to say that there isn't good reason to use a better than factory pump.. I guess I should have explained better...

Hey Steve....nobody's ragging on ya buddy.   I know you're sharp when it comes to engine stuff and like you, i never rebuild anything to stock...what fun is that   The reality is that the quality of oil is just as much a problem as the oil pressure.... if not more so ! The lack of Zinc in todays Passenger car oil formulations becomes troublesome for guys running flat tappet grinds with aggressive lobe profiles. Most new engines don't need the Zinc because of roller cam technology. Throw in low oil pressure and the problem becomes more pronounced.  

If anybody asks me what to run for oil i will allways recommend a high zinc lube like 15-40 rotella or VR1 20-50 valvoline racing oil. Along with a high pressure pump (stock pan) or high volume pump (6qt+ aftermarket pan). Inmo, the volume isn't as much an issue as the pressure.....the more pressure the better (within reason) especially at idle.

On a related note: we just assembled my buddies blower engine in my garage. He wiped two MP flat tappet cams last fall and went solid roller on the rebuild. We're not sure what the problem was because oil pressure was good and he was using quality lube....perhaps just bad luck, or the dreaded soft/offshore lifter junk that's been flooding the market. Here's a couple of pics.....degreeing in the cam and a shot of the gas ported 7.5:1 blower slugs i was telling you about.

Ron

[Steve P.]

Hey Ron, I forgot to tell you about my buddy here that scraped 2 lobes from a mopar cam.. I know he used light springs burning it in also. It didn't last a night of easy street cruising...

No more MOPAR cams...  I may just have to give them old boys at ISKY a call.. Haven't used an Isky in many years.. Are they still around??    Hughs.....

[beenaround]

guys to chime in here,the viscosity of the oil has a lot to do with how well your motor will run.it all depends on what your clearences are.motor oil has a modlecter structure.when you build a motor you need to ask a few questions.if its a street stock rebuild, you don't want to run straight 50w.if its a drag motor you may want to run a heavy wieght oil.when we used to break in a rebuilt motor we would run it at 1500 rpm for 15 minutes,then change the oil.we also used the cam lube that came with the cam.the oil pump only sqeezes the oil past the bearings.if the oil is too heavey the bearing don't get lubed,think about it for a moment if your crankshaft was dry and spun on the bearings without any oil it would be destroyed in a second.think about how thin that oil film really is.iknown i'm getting wicked high tech here,but ron and some of the others know where i'm coming from.and stevep we never used light valve springs.what we ran is what we ran.now if i'm wrong on any points  please feel free to comment.ps think of it this way a modiclue of .010 being forced through a clearence of .002.

[firefighter3931]

Those are good points John. Bearing clearance will determine how much viscosity is required. I like to run the clearances at 2.5 thou on the mains/rods. It might be slightly looser than factory spec but when things get real hot in there and metal starts expanding...the added clearance is a bonus. Adjusting the oil pressure is done with hp pumps and oil selection.

The reality is what "used" to work is no longer adequate. Passenger car oil lacks anti-scuffing agents (zinc) which flat tappet cams need to survive. The lobe profiles are more agressive requiring stiffer spring rates, placing more stress on the cam/lifters. The lifters themselves are another issue alltogether. There were 3 american lifter manufacturers....Eaton, Johnson and Standadyne. Only Standadyne is left because the other two went out of the lifter business. Off the three, Standadyne had the worst QC and were generally considered the last option for lifters....now they are the only player in town. There are a couple of issues that will affect how a lifter performs and whether it will survive or not :

(1) Machineing....is important. If there is insufficient crown on the base the lifter will not rotate in the bore and it will eat the cam, or the cam will eat it.
(2) Hardness....is also very important. The cam and lifters NEED to be different in hardness, for both to live in harmony with each other. The lifters produced these days are softer and on the "rockwell hardness" scale approach the same value as the cam's lobes. This is not a good thing. Used to be the lifters were manufactured much harder than they are now. This is why the ceramic base Schubecs have become so popular with the flat tappet/agressive cam crowd. The cam doesn't even need to be broken in with this type of lifter   I will run these in my next stroker build.  

That's my   on the subject so take it as you will and do what you feel is right for you.  

Ron

[Chryco Psycho]

I have from a reliable source found that Johnson is back in business , Eaton  went bankrupt , Johnson had a fire

[firefighter3931]

I have from a reliable source found that Johnson is back in business , Eaton   went bankrupt , Johnson had a fire

Now that is GOOD NEWS !  

Ron